baptism

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This post has 130 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 2398
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 6:47 PM

Randall - Although I have not liked the direction of some of the posts, I am glad that you asked the question because there has been some helpful information from which I have learned something.

Logos does have some resources on infant baptism.  I have not read them so I cannot recommend them, but here is the link.

http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=infant+baptism

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 7:02 PM

Randall Cue:
MJ you have come closest to the spirit of my original post, and I thank you for that. I am always amazed at how quickly we can change the direction of a "civilized" discussion. I did not want this to drift into a theological debate and stated such in the original post. I regret asking this question as it is obvious that so many that frequent the forum are un able or unwilling to stick to the subject of a post within the guidelines of the forum.

A Happy and Healthy New Year and Be at Peace, Randy!

                         Peace in Jesus!  Soli Deo Gloria indeed!   

*smile*               Peace of Heart and Peace of Mind!

            Randy, please keep on posting and please do regret this one.  It was a very good original post and was a good stimulation for us all until it got “bushwhacked.”

            Somewhere I seem to have heard this “Parable of Life” and have tried to reconstruct it for you.

            There is the story of these two guys, friends from the neighbourhood they lived in, who walked to work together on the same downtown street every day. 

            And, every day they encountered a man from their neighbourhood walking the opposite way on his way to work.  One of the guys, every day, greeted the neighbourhood gentleman  with a smile and a very cheery, ”Good Morning, Neighbour!”

            And every day the response was a cold and hostile “harrumph”!  This went on – day after day – week after week – month after month.

            Finally, one of the friends said to his friend, “I can’t understand why you greet him so cheerily every day when he’s such a mean-spirited man who huffs and puffs at the very sight of you.  Tell me why, please.”

            His friend said, “Well, I’m not going to let him decide how I live!”

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 388
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 7:28 PM

Paul Oertly:

 

 Odd:

One forum member is Heartily applauded for her comments.Another is reminded of forum guidelines for the same effort.

Milford Charles Murray:
Crystal Clear!  Indeed!            Thank you, and Peace!                 *smile*
Milford Charles Murray:

Please, Brothers and Sisters of the Logos Forums.  On the first day the New Year perhaps we could make a real effort to follow Phil Gons' guidelines:

  1. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions.
  2. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together.

Thank you and a Blessed and Happy and Healthy New Year to each of you.  Peace to you because of Emmanuel - God IS  with us!         *smile*

One has to wonder what caused the change of heart.

 

You make an interesting observation!

Posts 7534
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 2 2012 7:40 PM

MJ. Smith:

Willard Scott:
Copied and pasted

One of the reasons I strongly support robust notes in Logos - when my research has brought me to a good resource, I don't have to waste my time repeating what the source has already done for me.Smile BTW - I did think DAL's mention of Meyer was also worth noting for future reference.

Yes, Meyer is finally quoted in an interesting article.  I can't wait to get that resource.  I'm still trying out the NIVAC, but still not sure whether to keep it or not...we'll see -- I must admit that it's a good resource, though.

Blessings!

DAL

Posts 645
Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 4:23 AM

NewbieMick:

Dean,

I won't go into the argument, but just to be fair to this case (and as this is a bit of the small amount of German scholarship that got translated) it must be said that Aland tried to respond to Joachim Jeremias' book http://www.amazon.com/Infant-Baptism-First-Four-Centuries/dp/1592447570/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325545888&sr=1-1 and that Jeremias answered with http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Infant-Baptism-Further-Study/dp/1592445403/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325545888&sr=1-3 - regrettably we lack all three resources in Logos to build our own opinion on this. 

Mick

That's fair Mick, I simply wanted to show that one must be careful of simply copying and pasting quotes which purport to be from a certain historical period, or even attributing quotes to people when even responsible paedo baptist scholars admit they might not have said it. I am pretty sure I read Jeremias' response, but one must also mention in this regard H. F. Stander and J. P. Louw, Baptism in the Early Church (Leeds, England: Carey Publications, 2004). These guys are both Reformed paedo-baptists but come to the same conclusion as Ferguson, Aland, etc, that infant baptism began as clinic baptism in the fourth century. 

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 6:54 AM

Super Tramp:
I bet every poster in this thread belongs to such a controversial denomination

Possibly one to the truest statements that I have ever read on these forums, and one that could be so easily missed!

Tracing your denominational family tree through Church History can certainly throw up some interesting "family members" and it never ceases to amaze me how much influence the historical characters of Christianity continue to have on Churches and Denominations that would claim that there is no link.

I am part way through reading a book by Stephen Land called Pentecostal Spirituality, its not available in Logos, that reviews the origins of the denomination that I serve in and makes some interesting observations about the active influences. Not sure I agree with everything that I have read so far but many of his observations offer a good explanation for some of the tensions that exist within Pentecostalism itself and with the way that Pentecostals fit with other Protestant Churches.

Whether we like it or not, we are a a product of the way that we read the Bible, the practices of the denomination or denominations that we have worshipped in and the way that we ourselves follow the prompting of the Holy Spirit. In my teens I rejected the man made tradition of baptising people in a purpose built and heated pool located in the Church, I fought tooth and nail to be baptised in a way that I believed was consistent with the Bible and ended up being baptised in the sea! 30+ years later, reading the Bible, listening to others around me and listening to what the Holy Spirit says, I see things a bit differently

Evan Boardman:
Whats your thoughts on a denomination calling itself Baptist, would that in itself mean that they are practicing what the other christian arn't?

When studying the Anabaptists (Re Baptisers) one of the authors that I read made the observation that denominational names often originated from outside of the original group, often as a derogatory statement. Whilst much change can be traced back to Luther and the European Reformation, it is important to remember how much remained unchanged. I apologise to the real scholars and academics here but Luther's struggle was basically about the ultimate authority in the Church which he maintained was the Bible and not the Pope and Church History. (This is a good place for someone to note that the true head of the Church is Jesus).

Much has changed since Luther and I believe the term Baptists was first used here in England as a term for a group that started as part of the Church of England but moved away from it because having reviewed the Bible they rejected infant baptism. Having decided based on a study of the Bible that Baptism was for adults rather than infants, they started Baptising each other. The group initially remained part of the Church of England but over time and as a result of persecution they separated. Attempts have been made to link this movement with the Anabaptists who opposed Luther, Zwingli and the other Reformation Leaders who all chose to continue with infant baptism but in reality the two groups have little in common other than the rejection of infant baptism.

Another interesting observation that was made in a lecture on the Anabaptists was that in those days starting a new denomination or group was a big deal and therefore attracted a significant amount of attention and inevitably persecution. Things are very different these days where we seem to have a constant flow of new denominations and groups.


God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 7:42 AM

MJ. Smith:
I am comfortable including any early documentation of Christianity when the issue is history .
Fair enough.

John Huss


John Huss was a student of John Wycliff, who translated the Bible into English in 1382. Wycliff advocated the right of the common man to read the Bible in his own language. Both Wycliff and Huss believed scripture to supersede the dogmas and ordinances of the church and both declared the Papacy to be the AntiChrist foretold in scripture. John Huss was burned alive* at the stake in 1415 for his "heresy" and rebellion against Catholic authority.

 

Martin Luther

Based on prophetic studies, Martin Luther finally declared, "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520).

John Calvin

John Calvin (1509–1564) (Presbyterian): "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy."

John Knox

John Knox (1505–1572) (Scotch Presbyterian): John Knox sought to counteract "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church." As with Luther, he finally concluded that the Papacy was "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks."

 

Thomas Cranmer

Thomas Cranmer (1489–1556) (Anglican): "Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons."

 

Roger Williams

Roger Williams (1603–1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America): Pastor Williams spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ o­n earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not o­nly above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)."

 

The Westminster Confession of Faith

The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647): "There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God."

 

Cotton Mather

Cotton Mather (1663–1728) (Congregational Theologian): "The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them."

 

John Wesley

John Wesley (1703–1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone."

 

 

Posts 1943
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 8:05 AM

MJ. Smith:
I have added the 4 web pages mentioned (with one correction) to the Logos topic page on infant baptism so that next time we can simply point others to the Logos search.

MJ,

Can you provide a link to the "Logos topic page" to which you're referring? I thought it might be something in the wiki, but I can't find it there.

Thanks,

Donnie

 

Posts 1880
Philana Crouch | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 8:42 AM

 

I think the forum guidelines need to be remembered! 1. Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc. 2. Please do not discuss or debate biblical, theological, or other controversial topics. Use one of the many web forums intended for these kinds of discussions. 3. Please treat each other with the love, courtesy, respect, and kindness that you would if you were sitting in your living room together. But more  importantly the words of Scripture need to be followed, it says:

Treat people in the same way that you want them to treat you. (Luke 6:31 CEB)

 

Honor everyone. Love the family of believers. Have respectful fear of God. Honor the emperor. (1 Peter 2:17 CEB)

 

If I speak in tongues of human beings and of angels but I don’t have love, I’m a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. Love is patient, love is kind, it isn’t jealous, it doesn’t brag, it isn’t arrogant, it isn’t rude, it doesn’t seek its own advantage, it isn’t irritable, it doesn’t keep a record of complaints, it isn’t happy with injustice, but it is happy with the truth. (1 Corinthians 13:1, 4-6 CEB) Instead, by speaking the truth with love, let’s grow in every way into Christ, who is the head. The whole body grows from him, as it is joined and held together by all the supporting ligaments. The body makes itself grow in that it builds itself up with love as each one does their part. (Ephesians 4:15, 16 CEB) Some of the discussion in this thread (actually this has happened in many threads) has been with an attitude, not of love...but to try to prove that they are right and someone else is wrong. Such an attitude is unbecoming a follower of Christ. Even if you are right...without an attitude of love it's just a bunch of noise. Most people do not listen to clanging symbols (1 Corinthians 13:1). It is inappropriate for a Christian to mock someone else's faith and hold it up for ridicule. It is ok to respectfully disagree (but the Logos forums are not the place to do it). Please treat fellow brothers and sisters in Christ with love and respect...not rudeness. In Christ, Philana Crouch

 

Posts 175
Silent Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 8:48 AM

                                                                                       Yes

Posts 273
Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 9:06 AM

The original post violated the first sentence of the forum guidelines. No one should be surprised when such posts quickly turn into debate.

 

Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 9:29 AM

I was gonna say the original question was asking for trouble, maybe the poster wasn't intending it , but to ask a question on a forum about a touchy subject as baptism isn't very wise.

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 9:33 AM

Brad Fry:
No one should be surprised when such posts quickly turn into debate.

Agreed, but some of the posts have been quite personal and that is simply unnecessary and unproductive.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 273
Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 9:55 AM

Getting wet paint on your hands is also unnecessary and unproductive. But when the sign says, "Wet Paint...Do Not Touch", well...

Posts 3879
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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 9:56 AM

Brad Fry:
The original post violated the first sentence of the forum guidelines

Brad, I am not sure I see what you see.  Here is the OP

Randall Cue:
Can anyone give a citation for the first recorded instance of infant baptism. This is an historical question not a theological one.

a citation could come from any number of Logos tools, which is in keeping with the guidelines.  that other people felt compelled to escalate with emotion laden words, or those that deviated even slightly from his request is their problem, not the OPs.  But I do agree with you that this is a touchy issue.  My concern is that these forums dedicated to the software will often touch on these issues which often lead to people having sharp feelings and thoughts about them, because so many traditions are represented here.  Even in my own little non-denominational tradition we have had bitter "family disputes", let alone managing the disputes that will arise out of the extended family of Christendom.  My hope is that we all will grow in patience and gentleness as we encounter these differences.  2 Timothy 2:24 should inform our manner of dealing with people who disagree, even if the forum guidelines ask that the forum not be used to engage those touchy areas.  Meaning: yes, we should not engage in debate, but certainly, our manner should always be with gentleness.  When our manner is not gentle, we violate scripture.  Since we cannot be gentle (as proven over and over again), i have no problem banning theological discussion (besides a host of other reasons.)

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 273
Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 10:06 AM

I agree, Dan, our manner should always be with gentleness. And yours and the manner of many others are exactly that and I appreciate that. You and others have helped me out many times, even when I'm just "lurking". But the answer to the original question could have been answered or at least addressed by doing one's own research by searching one's library or the internet. There is a reason why the guidelines say what they say. The Logos higher-ups know what's going to happen when people bring up stuff like this.

Posts 3879
Forum MVP
Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 11:18 AM

Brad Fry:

I agree, Dan, our manner should always be with gentleness. And yours and the manner of many others are exactly that and I appreciate that. You and others have helped me out many times, even when I'm just "lurking". But the answer to the original question could have been answered or at least addressed by doing one's own research by searching one's library or the internet. There is a reason why the guidelines say what they say. The Logos higher-ups know what's going to happen when people bring up stuff like this.

Thank you, Brad.   Peace to you.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 29721
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 12:07 PM

Paul Oertly:

Fair enough.

John Huss

While it is off the topic of first infant baptism, this is a style of post I consider appropriate ... it leads me to specific individuals to look up in Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 29721
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 12:11 PM

Donnie Hale:
Can you provide a link to the "Logos topic page" to which you're referring?

If you do a search on "infant baptism" it should appear in the topics section. I'm dashing out to take Mother to an appointment but can provide the URL when I return.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 29721
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 3 2012 12:30 PM

Evan Boardman:
but to ask a question on a forum about a touchy subject as baptism isn't very wise.

I would prefer that people be held responsible for their own actions not the actions of others. Had everyone stuck to what the OP requested, the thread would have provided useful information to everyone. None of the answers to the OP were given in an offensive manner.

In the forums, we previously had a problem - people who suggested books often felt that they had to run a gauntlet of people saying what a bad resource it was. We, as a community, decided that it was inappropriate to slam a resource - thumbs up or nothing became the actual practice. We need to learn the same practice when it comes to questions like this = respond to the original post not to other's responses. Choosing the most useful response is the task of the poster - not the reader.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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