baptism

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Posts 77
Paul Oertly | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 4 2012 8:36 PM

MJ. Smith:
I am sorry that you misconstrued my intent
I'm glad you have determined where the responsibility lies.

Posts 48
Chris Rees | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 5 2012 2:44 AM

Lynden Williams:

First time reading the thread, even though I saw it earlier. It is interesting that 3441 times the thread has been read/viewed, even though it was started January 1. There are older threads on the forum which do not even have as many views.

Looks like most forum members are more into debates than discussing the software. Big Smile

Lynden, possibly because it is an incredibly interesting question. I sit on the 'personal profession' side on this issue, nonetheless am interested by the question and initial response. Having just expanded my library considerably with the Christmas credit, it has given me the opportunity to study this topic further, for which I thank my brothers and sisters in Christ. 

I find it very helpful to allow others to present information which in turn I have the opportunity to research. This then deepens my understanding and confirms or challenges my present thoughts. I realise the 'discussion' this may lead to will inevitably fall into the 'out of bounds' category for these forums, however the OP and initial citations surely were acceptable as would be further citations on topic. These have possibly been exhausted for the present!

Off topic of the OP, but in context of the thread, I love ALL God's family, and those yet to know him. I pray this year of 2012 will see many more come into the family and further look forward to the day when the scales will be taken from MY (and all our) eyes and I (and we) will truly know God's heart. When we meet before him, I do not want to have to apologise for my behaviour towards those I disagree with, whether in the family or not.

May God's love be evidenced in all we do and say.

 

 

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 7:53 PM

Lynden Williams:

First time reading the thread, even though I saw it earlier. It is interesting that 3441 times the thread has been read/viewed, even though it was started January 1. There are older threads on the forum which do not even have as many views.

Looks like most forum members are more into debates than discussing the software. Big Smile

The confessions of a 'hot topic' thread lurker...

I used to love debating theology, it was a rather routine thing to do within my religious tradition.  But I found myself being very angry towards those who did not see things my way. (That is a nice way of me saying I hated them)  Over the years, while still in ragefull debate mode, I slowly realized a few things.  The foremost being I could not recall ever debating anyone to the Lord (using my implied def. of debate).  The only time I was privileged to lead someone to Christ was when I was sharing the love of Christ (which has many forms: peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, compassion,  and the like).  I have personally come to the conclusion the Lord wants me to enter (or at least try) into loving (reflecting His love in ALL its forms) relationships that He will use to facilitate opportunities for sharing Truth, as opposed to my learned method of demeaning those who do not agree with me.

To use the overused... "I'm far from perfect".  I am reminded, almost daily, how far I have yet to go.  I naturally LOVE to let people know I am right and they are wrong, using lots of negative emotional language of course...   I had to take a 'sabbatical' from these forums because when I wanted to post it was usually to disagree with something,  and I would find myself typing away in the same manner of my past.  (most of the time I ended up not finishing the post, but not always)

I say all of that to say this...  I 'lurk' these 'hot topics' now for self-reflection.  I find myself, at times, agreeing with the thought foundation of a post, but cringing at how it is relayed.  It reminds me.... of me.  Then there are those rare gems of meekness that indeed disagree with someone, and yet it is FILLED with grace. 

Despite feeling like I'm trying to convince people of my own humility (which of course would make me self-delusional) ... I want to be a gem of meekness...

(a seemingly forgotten Christlike attribute)... <-- see old habits to die hard

The Holy Spirit doesn't let me pick and choose which characteristics of Christ I may or may NOT want to emulate...  Paul called on Christians to be like him.  While I tremble at the mere thought of ever saying that out loud to 'my' congregation, I know Paul could honestly say it because he was honestly and faithfully (by the Grace of God) trying to be like Christ... Not in one or two ways... but in EVERY way... (remember meekness Smile )

I apologize for the rambling parts and probably a few rabbit trails there... 

I want to end by thanking those "gems of meekness", most of you probably don't even realize who you are, but we do...

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:03 PM

I just realized.... too late... I should have just posted this as a new thread... Just FYI... It was not my intention to give new "life" to the negative....

My original intention was to thank the "gems".

Posts 29596
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:14 PM

J. Morris:
love debating

From The Rise of the University: (pay attention especially to the second paragraph)

NEW MOVEMENTS IN THE LATIN QUARTER

By the early 1100's there was great intellectual ferment in the Latin Quarter. Translations into Latin of Aristotle's Greek logical works were arriving from translation centers in Spain and Sicily, and the scholars of Paris found themselves with powerful new tools of reason. Peter Abelard, a student in the Latin Quarter who had returned to become a master in the school of Notre Dame, set both students and masters on their ears with his book entitled Sic et non (Yes and No), in which he demonstrated that the accepted authorities that everyone had been studying contradicted one another on almost every basic point that one could think of. He concluded that one had to collect the opinions of the authorities, but use logic to determine which of these opinions were correct.

The manner of teaching soon changed. Instead of listening to their master read and interpret, the students wanted to be taught how to reason. The public debate soon replaced the lecture in attracting the student's attention. They particularly like to hear their masters debate each other. At the same time that the nobles were developing the man-to-man armed confrontations of the tournament, scholars were developing the logical combat of the public debate.

At the same time, the demand of both Church and princes for trained administrators and lawyers was growing, and students found that skill in argumentation was a surer key to success than being able to determine the date of Easter or explain the mathematical proportions that were harmonic and those that were not. An ex-student by the name of John of Salisbury, commented that the study of the Liberal Arts (the trivium and quadrivium) were being abandoned in favor of mere professional training.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:29 PM

MJ.

I think... I should thank you for assuming my discernment is of high caliber...  While I understand what that article is saying factually, I am at a loss in discerning your implied intent of posting it.  (implied because it was not explicitly stated)

8,000+ posts!?  wow, thanks for all you do around here!

Posts 29596
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:37 PM

J. Morris:
I am at a loss in discerning your implied intent of posting it.

Just implying that debate, including theological debate, has a long and illustrious history ... when used in the appropriate mannerSmile  You might find that your interest in debate is a gift from God if you find the appropriate way to channel it.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 386
MJD | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 8:58 PM

J. Morris:

I used to love debating theology, it was a rather routine thing to do within my religious tradition.  But I found myself being very angry towards those who did not see things my way. (That is a nice way of me saying I hated them)  Over the years, while still in ragefull debate mode, I slowly realized a few things.  The foremost being I could not recall ever debating anyone to the Lord (using my implied def. of debate).  The only time I was privileged to lead someone to Christ was when I was sharing the love of Christ (which has many forms: peace, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, compassion,  and the like).  I have personally come to the conclusion the Lord wants me to enter (or at least try) into loving (reflecting His love in ALL its forms) relationships that He will use to facilitate opportunities for sharing Truth, as opposed to my learned method of demeaning those who do not agree with me.

To use the overused... "I'm far from perfect".  I am reminded, almost daily, how far I have yet to go.  I naturally LOVE to let people know I am right and they are wrong, using lots of negative emotional language of course...   I had to take a 'sabbatical' from these forums because when I wanted to post it was usually to disagree with something,  and I would find myself typing away in the same manner of my past.  (most of the time I ended up not finishing the post, but not always)

I say all of that to say this...  I 'lurk' these 'hot topics' now for self-reflection.  I find myself, at times, agreeing with the thought foundation of a post, but cringing at how it is relayed.  It reminds me.... of me.  Then there are those rare gems of meekness that indeed disagree with someone, and yet it is FILLED with grace. 

Despite feeling like I'm trying to convince people of my own humility (which of course would make me self-delusional) ... I want to be a gem of meekness...

(a seemingly forgotten Christlike attribute)... <-- see old habits to die hard

The Holy Spirit doesn't let me pick and choose which characteristics of Christ I may or may NOT want to emulate...  Paul called on Christians to be like him.  While I tremble at the mere thought of ever saying that out loud to 'my' congregation, I know Paul could honestly say it because he was honestly and faithfully (by the Grace of God) trying to be like Christ... Not in one or two ways... but in EVERY way... (remember meekness Smile )

Well said... I admire and long to be this refined someday.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 13 2012 10:43 PM

I'm just glad someone actually read my ranting! lol

Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 3:21 AM

J. Morris:
But I found myself being very angry towards those who did not see things my way. (That is a nice way of me saying I hated them) 

Sometime how you treat others is more important than "winning' a debate but I wouldnt say anger is always hate. Depending on the subject, anger towards others can be a reflection of love toward God. Let me say again depending on the subject. Most times treating other with respect even if they dont respect you is the way to go.

Posts 737
Evan Boardman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 14 2012 3:49 AM

Let me add.... You can be wrong and still love God.Smile

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