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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 1:55 PM

Rosie Perera:
Still, yours is much easier to navigate and looks really spiffy. I might also suggest one more column for "Tradition" (or "Denomination"?), since most of the PB's posted thus far fit strongly into one or another particular tradition: e.g., Lutheran, Restoration Movement, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist. People looking to pick up PB's might be looking for all the ones in a particular tradition.

Yes

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 2:39 PM

NewbieMick:

Rosie Perera:
I might also suggest one more column for "Tradition" (or "Denomination"?), since most of the PB's posted thus far fit strongly into one or another particular tradition: e.g., Lutheran, Restoration Movement, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist. People looking to pick up PB's might be looking for all the ones in a particular tradition.

Yes

I intended to say that I prefer my own suggestion above about a 'tag' column for both topic and denomination, for the simple reason that there's a limit to how many columns can fit into a page (plus it's slightly more flexible) -- but now I realize Mark has actually found a way to sort by column. I didn't know that was possible. It changes everything. So, yes, if there is a way to fit that many columns into the page I too now vote for a separate denomination column.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:09 PM

DominicM:
pointless having multiple lists

edit: I actually agree there should be one, all-inclusive repository of freely available PBB files. There should be multiple sites, each hosting the same collection. There will undoubtedly be denominational file collections that are hosted separately.

I totally disagree. I believe there should be mirror sites (plural), each hosting a comprehensive collection. When you have popular content you use a lot of bandwidth. Putting everything on one site is relying on one SysOp a little too much. What if s/he passes away? Will their spouse have any clue how to maintain the site? There are financial and time factors to be considered.also.  Ideally we need three sites mirroring.

There is a question of quality control. Many eSword modules are of poor quality and sometimes violate copyright laws. Will anyone screen submissions? Will files that offend the SysAdmin be hosted?  There are lots of things to consider.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:26 PM

Super Tramp:

I actually agree there should be one, all-inclusive repository of freely available PBB files. There should be multiple sites, each hosting the same collection. There will undoubtedly be denominational file collections that are hosted separately.

I totally disagree. I believe there should be mirror sites (plural), each hosting a comprehensive collection. When you have popular content you use a lot of bandwidth. Putting everything on one site is relying on one SysOp a little too much. What if s/he passes away? Will their spouse have any clue how to maintain the site? There are financial and time factors to be considered.also.  Ideally we need three sites mirroring.

One all-inclusive list (which is what I was trying to attain with the wiki list) is different from one all-inclusive repository. The list can point to files that are hosted in different places. I don't see bandwidth being an issue ever. Probably only a small percentage of Logos users ever will use PB's (even let's say 25% -- that's probably generous), and only a small percentage of those will be interested in downloading PB's that others have posted, and very few of those will download all of them -- they'll pick and choose based on their interests. And how many people are actually going to discover and want to download the same file on the same day, at the same minute? The chance of there being two or three users doing it at the same time is minuscule, and even then all the servers we host files on could handle that. We're not talking about hundreds or thousands of users wanting at these files 24 hours a day.

As long as people can still post the free stuff in the Files forum, we don't have to worry about any SysOp or anyone passing away or mirror sites. If people want to post their own stuff on their own websites, that's fine. Nobody is obligated to make sure the stuff they share will be available in perpetuity after their lifetime. If others grab it and mirror it elsewhere on the web, all the better. That's the beauty of the Internet. But I don't think we need to formally organize anything like that. Just having one central list that has links to all the known available PBB content around on the web should be sufficient.

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:37 PM

Rosie Perera:
Well, OK, but it still seems more error prone and time consuming.

This is my concern. I'm certainly not volunteering to take over as editor. Unless someone who wants to maintain it thinks its a good idea, it will remain proof of concept only.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:38 PM

It would be good to have a forum post in the Files section that was made a sticky that directed uploaders to edit the Wiki page to include their file.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:43 PM

Mark Barnes:

It would be good to have a forum post in the Files section that was made a sticky that directed uploaders to edit the Wiki page to include their file.

Yes, if some Logos forum moderator notices this perhaps they could add a sticky. We don't have permissions to add sticky thread. Or maybe I could write a thread that could then be promoted to a sticky by a forum moderator?

Anyway, I don't mind continuing to check about once a week for any new posts in the Files forum and adding them to the wiki page. It hasn't been a big burden thus far.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 3:45 PM

Rosie Perera:
One all-inclusive list (which is what I was trying to attain with the wiki list) is different from one all-inclusive repository.

I missed that technicality. But then we will have the issue of broken links.

Rosie Perera:
As long as people can still post the free stuff in the Files forum,

There will inevitably be the conflict between Logos and competing public domain files.  If a user posts a public domain file today that Logos does not publish, that file will have to be removed when Logos does get around to publishing the resource. If there are links to outside access of competing files it would violate the spirit of the forum guidelines. I am not trying to throw cold water on the project, I just think it needs to eventually move off-site from Logos.com and include all PBBs people want to submit without regard to competition to Logos. It is the fair way for both parties.. 

As far as the bandwidth and site maintenance headaches; I had a friend who operated one of the USA's top 100 BBS's. Granted, the bandwidth back then was expensive and very choked but a human still has to attend to the server frequently. 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 4:04 PM

Super Tramp:

Rosie Perera:
One all-inclusive list (which is what I was trying to attain with the wiki list) is different from one all-inclusive repository.

I missed that technicality. But then we will have the issue of broken links.

That's why it's a wiki page, fully user editable. Easy to fix broken links if someone notices them (or remove the entry if that file is no longer available anywhere online). This works for if Logos eventually publishes one of these public domain works and we need to take it down too. We might need to get David or someone to delete the link in the forum post if it's posted in the Files forum. But if the file itself is hosted elsewhere, it's just a matter of removing the corresponding link in the wiki page.

And as I've said before, I'm willing to do this only until such time as Logos rolls out its online store, because then the issues of competing with Logos might get escalated, more people will be doing these things, and it will become harder to maintain the list. And anyway, the storefront will serve as a searchable sortable list already so there's no need to reinvent the wheel.

Super Tramp:
As far as the bandwidth and site maintenance headaches; I had a friend who operated one of the USA's top 100 BBS's. Granted, the bandwidth back then was expensive and very choked but a human still has to attend to the server frequently. 

I think you're way overestimating how much interest there's going to be in PB's. This isn't going to get the kind of traffic that one of the USA's top 100 BBS's did. Ask Thomas if he ever had any bandwidth problems maintaining StrillTruth.com. And again, I repeat, the wiki page doesn't have anything to do with bandwidth. People click on those links and get to different servers elsewhere (or the Logos server for things on the Files forum), and those individual sites deal with their own bandwidth issues. Logos won't have a problem. The others seriously won't have a problem. We've got maybe 30 active users on the forums who are excited about the PB's there are there now and have been contributing to them and downloading them. I don't see that expanding more than 10 or maybe 100-fold, even granted that not all PB users are active forum contributors. It is still not going to be anywhere near the order of the top 100 BBS's. And as you pointed out, bandwidth back then was way more choked.

Most servers that we folks are posting things to are maintained by someone else, and we don't have to worry about bandwidth or any of the technical details. Even Thomas who owns his own domain name probably doesn't have his own server, nor have to maintain its uptime himself. It's hosted somewhere and the hosting company takes care of bringing it back up if it's down. I rely on Hostgator.com to take care of those issues for my website. That's what we pay those guys for. Very few people do it the old "private hacker running his own BBS off a server in his basement" way anymore.

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 4:11 PM

Mark Barnes:
This is my concern. I'm certainly not volunteering to take over as editor. Unless someone who wants to maintain it thinks its a good idea, it will remain proof of concept only.

Rosie Perera:
Anyway, I don't mind continuing to check about once a week for any new posts in the Files forum and adding them to the wiki page. It hasn't been a big burden thus far.

Surely, if we can get the MVP's and the frequent PB posters to agree to do the Wiki editing themselves when they add something (and to add a note in the Files thread that they've done it), it should be possible to find a group of people willing to take turns adding the rest. I for one would not volunteer to take over permanently, but I'd be willing to do it for a fortnight.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 4:32 PM

Rosie Perera:
I think you're way overestimating

You have put my fears to rest.  I guess I am an old fogie stuck in the past. (I thought the shotgun modems were really cool.)

Rosie Perera:
Very few people do it the old "private hacker running his own BBS off a server in his basement" way anymore.
 

Crying  How I miss the good old days with Bill and Alice in the Dungeon of Doom and Pepsi Cola. Crying

clarification: Lest the young-uns get lost in that last lament; Bill and Alice wrote The Hard Edge column of Computer Shopper each month. Bill locked himself in the basement eating delivery pizza, drinking Pepsi, and playing Doom for weeks. Their journalism was most entertaining and made up for Dvorak's and Norton's stuff.

 

 

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Calvin Habig | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 5:14 PM

I don't mind updating the wiki when I post new resources, but have never done it. Is there a quick & dirty tutorial for editing wikis? (A wiki on wiki's?)  Does one have to be given permission to edit the wikis?  I post regularly, but have no idea how one gets the designation MPV.  I'm sure I'm not. 

 

Update: Never mind. I went into the wiki and saw how terrifyingly easy it is to edit the page.    Easy, because it is.  Terrifying because it would be simple to really screw up the page!  I'll try to add my contribution the next time I put up a resource.  cph.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 5:40 PM

Calvin Habig:
Terrifying because it would be simple to really screw up the page!

Don't worry! There's a complete history of every version of the page, so it's easy to restore it to a previous version if necessary.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 6 2012 5:54 PM

Calvin Habig:
I don't mind updating the wiki when I post new resources, but have never done it. Is there a quick & dirty tutorial for editing wikis?

You don't need to. I'm doing it regularly. It takes about 10 minutes of my time once a week. If you want to, great. I won't duplicate your efforts. But don't feel you have to if you're worried you might screw something up.

Anyway, you can always (and should) hit the Preview button and reviewing your changes before hitting Save, to be sure you haven't broken anything.

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toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 7 2012 6:53 PM

Mark, I like it A LOT!

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 10 2012 6:09 AM

Keep going!  

I just found this thread and wish to encourage you all.  I have long wanted to do something on stilltruth, indeed up until January I was working on stuff in the background  but have left it to the wind as it is no longer a hobby I can maintain in terms of time investment.  **sigh**

Someone mentioned bandwidth.  I have never had a problem with bandwidth because I have an unlimited bandwidth plan.  :-)   (CPU usage and wayward scripts were another issue long since resolved.)

Someday... I'd like to go back to cataloging everything, but it shall not be this day, nor is it likely to be any day soon.  Carry on my friends.  Carry on.

 

 

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