4 Esdras -books, for example reverse interlinear

Page 1 of 1 (18 items)
This post has 17 Replies | 0 Followers

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012 3:25 AM
4 Esdras was used in the early Church so I'm hoping this wonderful book would be revived, it's not like other Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal books, and it has been quoted in several books of the NT. I have commentaries to Jn, Ro, Jas, 1 Clem, and I was able to immediately see from the indexes of these commentaries that each one of them refer to 4 Esdras. I would really prefer electronic searchable resources such as for Logos on this. That's why I haven't went to printed matter, I've only bought the item by Hephaestus books, a print-on-demand-book, called (long title): Jewish Eschatology, including: resurrection, resurrection of the dead, jewish messianism, gog and magog, 2 esdras, armilus, 2 baruch, 3 baruch, war of ezekiel 38-39, fate of the unlearned, the secrets of rabbi simon ben yohai, gathering of israel Within a year from now I can use Biblical Greek properly. I don't know any Latin or any language related to Latin so it would have been hard and less useful for me to learn Latin. The best Bible version of 4 Esdras is the 1989 Revised English Bible. There is a thread about the REB: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/45624.aspx

Aply!
trulyergonomic.com 5,850own
12G A9-9420 V8.3 Acc 11
d:'13Q3 12G

Posts 18669
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 4:34 AM

My understanding is that 4 Esdras (in the Vulgate) is part of 2 Esdras (in English translations), a book included in the Apocrypha. So any Bible with reverse interlinear that includes the Apocrypha has it. That would include NRSV, for example:

There are two commentaries available in Logos that cover 4 Esdras:

2 Esdras by Bruce Longenecker (Sheffield Guides to Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha)

Fourth Ezra by Michael E. Stone (Hermeneia; only available as part of the whole set)

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 6:22 AM

NRSV? I'm not 'correcting' ... just expressing frustration as Juho.


Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 8:44 AM

I meant books ON 4 Esdras, such as commentaries. Besides, I doubt the NRSV reverse interlinear Apocrypha has 4 Esdras.

And yes, I'm not please with NRSV, it's too mainstream and hard to read.

Aply!
trulyergonomic.com 5,850own
12G A9-9420 V8.3 Acc 11
d:'13Q3 12G

Posts 1599
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 8:57 AM

Rosie Perera:

My understanding is that 4 Esdras (in the Vulgate) is part of 2 Esdras (in English translations), a book included in the Apocrypha. So any Bible with reverse interlinear that includes the Apocrypha has it. That would include NRSV, for example:


Oh where is MJ when you need her!  She know more than I do on comparative Canons.  But since I will insert what I know anyway.  The names of the books is not exactly consistent between all the editions, which can make this all a bit confusing.  The name "Esdras" is a variant of "Ezra".  In many old versions they are numbered 1 Ezra (our book of Ezra), 2 Ezra (our book of Nehemiah) and then multiple other "Ezra"'s.  Some of these books are an appendix in the Latin Vulgate, but are not considered to be canonical by Rome. In addition, there are many other books attributed to Ezra.  The thing is that the barrier to what is in the Apocrypha is a bit fluid, and different translations include more or fewer books.  I have no idea what books would be included in any RI Logos produced...  "2 Esdras", while quite historically significant the development of Jewish Apocalyptic, is stretching the barriers more than a bit.  The NRSV does have a quite generous collection.  To my knowledge, the only book viewed as canonical by ANYONE that is not included would be Jubilees.
SDG
Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 5250
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 10:03 AM

2 Esdras is a special animal…. we have come down to us in Latin text only (greek fragments are out there but very little of it)  so an interlinear will be based on latin, I know other companies have choose to just not tag it rather than build a lexicon for one book, although I think it would be great if Logos did it. You also missed commentary on it in Anchor Yale Bible: Old Testament and of course the brief treatment of it as found in Harper's Bible Commentary.

-Dan

I am quite surprised Logos has not made AYB available as a Apocrypha set and a hebrew canon OT set.

Rosie Perera:

My understanding is that 4 Esdras (in the Vulgate) is part of 2 Esdras (in English translations), a book included in the Apocrypha. So any Bible with reverse interlinear that includes the Apocrypha has it. That would include NRSV, for example:

There are two commentaries available in Logos that cover 4 Esdras:

2 Esdras by Bruce Longenecker (Sheffield Guides to Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha)

Fourth Ezra by Michael E. Stone (Hermeneia; only available as part of the whole set)

 

Posts 5250
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 10:21 AM

Here are all the translation of 4 Ezra i have (4 ezra being the bulk of 2 Esdras), comparing how they are translated the opening words of the book.  Note I did not include RSV since it appeared to be the identical translation in the Hermeneia commentary.

     3:1      In the thirtieth  year after the destruction of our city, b I, Salathiel,  who am also called Ezra, was in Babylon. I was troubled as I lay on my bed, and d my thoughts welled up in my heart, 2/ because I saw the desolation of Zion and the wealth of those who lived in Babylon.  3/ My spirit was greatly agitated, and I began to speak anxious words to the Most High, and said, --Stone, M. E., & Cross, F. M. (1990). Fourth Ezra : A commentary on the book of Fourth Ezra. Hermeneia--a critical and historical commentary on the Bible (52–53). Minneapolis: Fortress Press.

3 In the thirtieth year after the destruction of the city, I was in Babylon—I, Salathiel, who am also called Ezra. I was troubled as I lay on my bed, and my thoughts welled up in my heart, 2 because I saw the desolation of Zion and the wealth of those who lived in Babylon. 3 My spirit was greatly agitated, and I began to speak anxious words to the Most High, and said,  -NRSV

In the thirtieth year after the ruin of the city I was in Babylon, and lay troubled upon my bed, and my thoughts came up over my heart: For I saw the desolation of Sion, and the wealth of them that dwelt at Babylon. And my spirit was sore moved, so that I began to speak words full of fear to the most High, and said, --KJV

“In the thirtieth year after the fall of Jerusalem, I, Salathiel (who am also Ezra), was in Babylon. Lying on my bed I was troubled and my mind filled with perplexityas I reflected on the desolation of Zion and the prosperity of those who lived in Babylon. I was deeply disturbed in spirit, and full of fear I addressed the Most High.” --(2 Esdras 3:1–3 REBA)

3      1 In the thirtieth year after the overthrow of the citya, I was in Babylon—I, Salathiel, who am also Ezra. Now I was perturbed as I reclined upon my bed so that my thoughts swarmed around in my mind, 2 because I visualized the ruin of Zion [on the one hand] and the affluence of those who lived in Babylon [on the other]. 3 Hence I was so profoundly disquieted that I began to address the Most High in terms reflecting [my] apprehension. --Myers, J. M. (2008). I and II Esdras: Introduction, translation and commentary (159). New Haven; London: Yale University Press.

 

Juho Cyklist:

I meant books ON 4 Esdras, such as commentaries. Besides, I doubt the NRSV reverse interlinear Apocrypha has 4 Esdras.

And yes, I'm not please with NRSV, it's too mainstream and hard to read.

 

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 10:59 AM

I know about the Anchor Yale Bible commentary of 4 Esdras, but it's too lengthy and I won't buy the the whole Anchor Yale Bible Old Testament or Hermeneia -set just to get that volume and a few others.

Aply!
trulyergonomic.com 5,850own
12G A9-9420 V8.3 Acc 11
d:'13Q3 12G

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 2:14 PM


Posts 18669
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 2:17 PM

DMB:

NRSV? I'm not 'correcting' ... just expressing frustration as Juho.

I was only pointing that out since it is the only Bible Logos produces that does include Apocrypha. Aside from that you're out of luck, I was not intending to object to anyone asking here for new resources.

Posts 1599
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 2:26 PM

Rosie Perera:

DMB:

NRSV? I'm not 'correcting' ... just expressing frustration as Juho.

I was only pointing that out since it is the only Bible Logos produces that does include Apocrypha. Aside from that you're out of luck, I was not intending to object to anyone asking here for new resources.

Actually, no.  RSV and Cambridge Paragraph KJV (and I think one other KJV - 1900 maybe?) have a quite extensive Apocrypha section in the Bible.  Also the Roman Catholic translations include the Deuterocannonical books.  And the Vulgate and LXX have the expanded cannon as well, but admittedly, from context it is obvious you are talking about English Bibles.

The NRSV book list is the extent of the Bible type for Logos, if I recall correctly, because it has such an extensive collection of books.  In addition it is a generally solid translation (and yes, I am aware of and even agree with a few criticisms of it)

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

Posts 18669
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 2:34 PM

Kenneth McGuire:

Rosie Perera:

DMB:

NRSV? I'm not 'correcting' ... just expressing frustration as Juho.

I was only pointing that out since it is the only Bible Logos produces that does include Apocrypha. Aside from that you're out of luck, I was not intending to object to anyone asking here for new resources.

Actually, no.  RSV and Cambridge Paragraph KJV (and I think one other KJV - 1900 maybe?) have a quite extensive Apocrypha section in the Bible.  Also the Roman Catholic translations include the Deuterocannonical books.  And the Vulgate and LXX have the expanded cannon as well, but admittedly, from context it is obvious you are talking about English Bibles.

Oops, I left out some words when I edited my reply. I meant the only reverse interlinear Bible Logos produces that includes Apocrypha.  RSV, Cambridge Paragraph KJV, and Common English Bible have Apocrypha, but they don't have interlinear.

Posts 26527
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 3:20 PM

Kenneth McGuire:
The names of the books is not exactly consistent between all the editions, which can make this all a bit confusing. 

From Logos 3 where I was allowed to make my own time lines:

Kenneth McGuire:
To my knowledge, the only book viewed as canonical by ANYONE that is not included would be Jubilees.

from the same source:

But, of course there is no reason to make timelines in L4 'cause Logos knows best.Zip it!

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 4:23 PM

Thank you very much MJ ... great work. I moved into my image library.


Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 1:26 PM

On wednesday April 18. I place my orders to Logos.com, I've decided that I take the Original Languages -base-package. It includes English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts, but I doubt that it contains 4 Esdras!

DMB:

Aply!
trulyergonomic.com 5,850own
12G A9-9420 V8.3 Acc 11
d:'13Q3 12G

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 1:40 PM

Julo ... where'd you see the NRSV apocryphal texts were in a NRSV Reverse Interlinear?

As far as I know Logos has been 'developing' them for about 2 years now. See above.

Just don't want you to be disappointed with not not-finding 4 Esdras.


Posts 95
Rick Brannan | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 18 2012 7:11 AM

FWIW, the "English-Greek Reverse Interlinear of the NRSV Apocryphal Texts" (here: http://www.logos.com/product/7130/english-greek-reverse-interlinear-of-the-nrsv-apocryphal-texts) will not include an alignment with 4 Esdras. As noted in this thread, 4 Esdras in the NRSV is translated from the Latin, not the Greek.

As to the status of the NRSV-LXX Apocryphal texts interlinear, we have alignment data but have some more work to do as the NRSV translates the 'alternate' (bad word) edition of Tobit instead of the 'primary' edition — where 'alternate' means "the one in the Logos LXX Alternate Texts resource" and 'primary' means "the one in the primary/main Logos LXX resource"

This may not sound like a complicated thing the way it is described above, but it really is. We didn't anticipate that, and it will take some work to support. We just haven't been able to get there yet. But we will. it's getting closer.

Rick Brannan | Twitter: @RickBrannan
my books in print

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 20 2012 3:00 PM

There is a relevant Uservoice to vote on: http://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-4/suggestions/514417-create-a-reverse-interlinear-for-nrsv-deuterocanon
I just found an item: http://www.logos.com/product/24061/text-and-studies-contributions-to-biblical-and-patristic-literature
Text and Studies: Contributions to Biblical and Patristic Literature, vol. 3, no. 2: The Fourth Book of Ezra

  • Author: Robert L. Bensly
  • Series: Text and Studies: Contributions to Biblical and Patristic Literature
  • Publisher: University Press
  • Publication Date: 1895
  • Pages: 202

... its on Community Pricing, Projected price right now is $50 on 47%.
... in it were also a couple of other interesting titles: The Fragments of Heracleon, A Study of Codex Bezae.
I'm placing a bid on it. Then I have that, Hermeneia, the Hephaestus -book (no longer provided on Amazon when I checked ~ month ago) mentioned in the OP, REB Apocrypha as printed matter as well as in Logos, and NRSV in English as well as reverse interlinear.
REB in Logos: http://www.logos.com/product/24537/the-revised-english-bible-with-the-apocrypha
REB Apocrypha as printed matter: http://www.amazon.com/Apocrypha-RE530-Baker-Publishing-Group/dp/0521769310/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1345499995&sr=1-1&keywords=reb+apocrypha
The REB is said to be good for the Apocrypha and Pauline Epistles.
I did a search about 3 months ago and found this sermon from May 2010 that mentions 4 Esdras: http://sermons.logos.com/submissions/113385-The-Minor-Prophets-in-The-New-Testament#content=/submissions/113385

Rosie Perera:

My understanding is that 4 Esdras (in the Vulgate) is part of 2 Esdras (in English translations), a book included in the Apocrypha. So any Bible with reverse interlinear that includes the Apocrypha has it. That would include NRSV, for example:

Aply!
trulyergonomic.com 5,850own
12G A9-9420 V8.3 Acc 11
d:'13Q3 12G

Page 1 of 1 (18 items) | RSS