Johannite Church ~AD 90

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Unix | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Apr 15 2012 3:46 AM

I'm interested in what the Johannite Church was ~AD 90. I would very much like to not have to search out material on my own because I'm really unsure I would just end up with unreliable material with bad research and views and opinions I would rather step away from.

So could Logos please do the job for us and look up such titles?

I think there would be demand for some item, many who research the Early Church, including some Gnostic Churches, end up with prefer the Johannite Church.

I would pay anything for such an item! Please notify me here when what I'm looking for has got published!

And yes, I would like to stay away from printed matter.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 4:26 AM

Good question. I know virtually nothing about the Johannite (or is it Johannine?) Church. A search in my Logos library for that first spelling found only 1 hit. On the other hand, a search for that second spelling found 452 results, though not all are necessarily references to what you're talking about.

There's some good information on the "History of John’s Church" in the article on "John, Letters of" in the Dictionary of the Later New Testament & Its Developments. There's a section on "The Johannine Sect" in the Sheffield New Testament Study Guide: John. There's also a section on "The History of John’s Church" in the NIV Application Commentary volume on 1-3 John. And most of the commentaries on the Johannine epistles go into some detail about the nature of the Johannine church (I. Howard Marshall in NICNT series; Stephen Smalley in WBC; Raymond Brown in AYBC; D Moody Smith in Interpretation)

There's a book called The Community of the Beloved Disciple: The Life, Loves and Hates of an Individual Church in New Testament Times by Raymond E. Brown (Paulist Press) that gets referenced in 187 of my Logos resources. It's not available in Logos (yet), but it looks like it would be a good one to request. The only book-length treatment of the subject I've found so far in a bit of digging. The closest you'll come is that volume by him in the Anchor Yale Bible commentaries series, which is unfortunately only available with the whole set.

By the way, just because Logos publishes a book doesn't necessarily mean it will be something you'd agree with or want to read. They publish a wide range of resources to appeal to a broad spectrum of users, from Catholic to Evangelical Protestants (including some who are deeply anti-Catholic), Eastern Orthodox, some Jewish, from liberal to conservative and everywhere along that spectrum, Charismatic, Anglican/Episcopal, Lutheran, scholarly academics who are not particularly devout in their personal spirituality, etc. Trusting someone else to do the research for you and pick things for you to read is liable to open you up to all kinds of things you might rather step away from. Develop your research skills and learn how to decide which books and articles are trustworthy and which ones aren't.

Also, not to disappoint you intentionally, but I'm certain that Logos will not be able to follow up and notify you here once anything you're asking for has been published (if it ever is, for which there's no guarantee). They make the announcements in their advertising stream, via pre-publication announcements and the like. They never post back here on the Suggestions forum, not when they've taken an idea we request and put it in their list of books to attempt to acquire publishing rights for, nor when they finally get published. Sometimes, if you're lucky, another user will notice when a new book gets published and they'll remember that someone was asking for it way back when, and they'll search and find the thread and post a follow-up comment about the newly available resource. But don't hold your breath. Keep an eye on the new stuff coming through the pipeline yourself. You can do this by subscribing to the pre-pubs RSS feed: http://feeds.feedburner.com/LogosPrepubs

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 5:11 AM

Juho Cyklist:
I'm interested in what the Johannite Church was ~AD 90.

There really was no Johannine church c 90 ad since John had died in Jerusalem.  This is found in the list of Syrian feast days.  Since it is specified that he died "in Jerusalem", this means that he was dead by 70 ad.  I realize there is a legend that John lived a very long life and was located at Ephesus, but it isn't true.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 8899
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 8:40 AM

Juho Cyklist:
I would very much like to not have to search out material on my own because I'm really unsure I would just end up with unreliable material with bad research and views and opinions I would rather step away from.

So could Logos please do the job for us and look up such titles?

Given what you said about your beliefs in the other thread, this question makes it pretty clear that you don't understand where Logos stands theologically. Logos as a company is 100% Evangelical (and that means American Evangelical, not Swedish Evangelical). They've finally started to publish some Catholic materials, and they have a small number of Catholic employees, but the theology they actively promote is very far from the Catholic theology you're looking for. In fact, from what you've told about yourself, I'd say it falls clearly in your "rather stay away from" category. So you really need to learn to distinguish for yourself.

Raymond Brown is a (the?) classic.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 9:06 AM

I couldn't care less about any Swedish Evangelical Church. Things don't have to be Swedish. And I'm sure the Catholics at Logos give the task of typing down the books they've selected, to others. (At least in some cases.)

Looks like I made a mistake about the date, but I'm sure the Johannite Church didn't disappear immediately at John's death.

Well, I haven't developed my point so much. I believe in the Transubstantation and Purgatory. I don't believe heaven nor hell is eternal. Other than that there's not a lot I agree with the Catholic Church, other than practical issues such as about priests.

It's not so DIFFICULT to notify someone, just search the term and see if someone has posted (why post multiple new threads?), but of course I might be out of luck when the sought for item gets published, if it does.

I don't like Raymond E. Brown, I avoid all his books so I chose Catholic Foundations -package. 

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 11:05 AM

Juho Cyklist:

I couldn't care less about any Swedish Evangelical Church. Things don't have to be Swedish. And I'm sure the Catholics at Logos give the task of typing down the books they've selected, to others. (At least in some cases.)

While she is actually a member of the Church of Sweden, when I read her reply, all she was really saying is that the term "Evangelical" means something quite different on Continental Europe than it does in Anglo-America.  Logos, the company, has a background in the Anglo-American Evangelical movement.  Logos, the company, has been trying to reach out to users outside of Anglo-American Evangelicalism, but most of their base packages are still based on that.

What is it that you don't like about Raymond Brown?  Most people have found him to be both scholastically solid as well as fairly understandable.  His book Community of the Beloved Disciple is a standard work on John's community.

Can you be a bit clearer about what you mean by the term Johannite Church?

 

SDG

Ken McGuire

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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 12:28 PM

George Somsel:

There really was no Johannine church c 90 ad since John had died in Jerusalem.  This is found in the list of Syrian feast days.  Since it is specified that he died "in Jerusalem", this means that he was dead by 70 ad.  I realize there is a legend that John lived a very long life and was located at Ephesus, but it isn't true.

What search string should we use to search for the age of John at death? (assume that the found hits will tell where) 

[[Question: just because lots of people died in Jerusalem in 70 why does that imply that any given person who died in Jerusalem died in 70?]]

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 12:55 PM

Kenneth McGuire:

What is it that you don't like about Raymond Brown?  Most people have found him to be both scholastically solid as well as fairly understandable.  His book Community of the Beloved Disciple is a standard work on John's community.

The whole notion of a sectarian "Johannine community,"  and the idea that the history of such hypothetical community can be reconstructed through the text of the Fourth Gospel, are both questionable, and have received considerable challenge from such scholars as Hengel and Bauckham. 

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fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 1:04 PM

David Ames:
[[Question: just because lots of people died in Jerusalem in 70 why does that imply that any given person who died in Jerusalem died in 70?]]

I don't think Jews were allowed in Jerusalem after 70.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 1:06 PM

David Ames:

George Somsel:

There really was no Johannine church c 90 ad since John had died in Jerusalem.  This is found in the list of Syrian feast days.  Since it is specified that he died "in Jerusalem", this means that he was dead by 70 ad.  I realize there is a legend that John lived a very long life and was located at Ephesus, but it isn't true.

 

What search string should we use to search for the age of John at death? (assume that the found hits will tell where) 

[[Question: just because lots of people died in Jerusalem in 70 why does that imply that any given person who died in Jerusalem died in 70?]]

In answer to your last question, it doesn't imply that he died in 70.  It implies that he died no later than 70. 

His age at death?  I don't know.  See

Charles, R.H. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Revelation of St John. International Critical Commentary. Edinburgh: T&T Clark International, logosres:icc-rev;ref=VolumePage.V_1,_p_xlviii;off=2141 1920 [(d) The Syriac Martyrology postulates the martyrdom of John the son of Zebedee].

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 1:13 PM

David Ames:

What search string should we use to search for the age of John at death? (assume that the found hits will tell where) 

[[Question: just because lots of people died in Jerusalem in 70 why does that imply that any given person who died in Jerusalem died in 70?]]

Irenaeus states that John died in the reign of Trajan (i.e. no earlier than 98 AD), and the view that he died peacefully at Ephesus is found in Polycrates, Jerome and elsewhere. There is a separate tradition of the martyrdom of the apostle John by the Jews, found in some medieval fragments attributed to Papias, and in some of the early martyrologies. Some scholars such as Bernard in his commentary on John (Critical and Exegetical Commentary Series), seek to explain away the martyrdom tradition: I prefer to find the solution by differentiating the apostle John from Papias' elder John, and to ascribe the peaceful death of John to the latter. Bernard is available in Logos and would be a good starting place. Ultimately the tradition of the martyrdom of John goes back to the Gospels themselves (Matt. 20:23; Mark 10:39). The fifth-century Syriac martyrology that George refers to only states that John was killed by the Jews in Jerusalem, though certainly we could reasonably infer an early date (See Culpepper, John Son of Zebedee, p. 172). However, Charles in his commentary on Revelation provides a lot of grounds for understanding an early martyrdom of John. For example, Gregory of Nyssa is said to have been confused by the fact that the calendar of his church in Asia Minor placed the martyrdom of John between that of Stephen and Paul, which would argue for an early date (Commentary on Revelation, xlvii). Charles and Bernard are both helpful resources within Logos on the question (I have neither). 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 1:14 PM

Dean053:

Kenneth McGuire:

What is it that you don't like about Raymond Brown?  Most people have found him to be both scholastically solid as well as fairly understandable.  His book Community of the Beloved Disciple is a standard work on John's community.

The whole notion of a sectarian "Johannine community,"  and the idea that the history of such hypothetical community can be reconstructed through the text of the Fourth Gospel, are both questionable, and have received considerable challenge from such scholars as Hengel and Bauckham. 

While traditionally the fourth gospel and the 3 epistles have been ascribed to John the Apostle, I think it more likely that the true author was the shadowy John the Elder of Ephesus.  The two became confused and the apostle was substituted for the Elder.  This appears to have been well established prior to the composition of the Apocalypse since the pseudonymous author writes in the name of John the Apostle. 

ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ὅσα εἶδεν
who bore witness to the Word of God, even the martyrdom of Jesus Christ, which he saw.

By this time it was also becoming more important that the writings of the canon bear the imprint of either an apostle or or a companion of the apostles (Luke, Mark) which accounts for the subterfuge.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 1:19 PM

George Somsel:

While traditionally the fourth gospel and the 3 epistles have been ascribed to John the Apostle, I think it more likely that the true author was the shadowy John the Elder of Ephesus.  The two became confused and the apostle was substituted for the Elder.  This appears to have been well established prior to the composition of the Apocalypse since the pseudonymous author writes in the name of John the Apostle. 

While I would agree that the author of the FG and the epistles was in some sense John the Elder, I would disagree that the traditional view was established prior to the time of Eusebius in the fourth century. Revelation never claims to have been written by an apostle, and John refers to himself as a prophet, and he speaks of the twelve apostles of the lamb as a group with no indication he considered himself as one of them. 

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 1:42 PM

Dean053:

George Somsel:

While traditionally the fourth gospel and the 3 epistles have been ascribed to John the Apostle, I think it more likely that the true author was the shadowy John the Elder of Ephesus.  The two became confused and the apostle was substituted for the Elder.  This appears to have been well established prior to the composition of the Apocalypse since the pseudonymous author writes in the name of John the Apostle. 

While I would agree that the author of the FG and the epistles was in some sense John the Elder, I would disagree that the traditional view was established prior to the time of Eusebius in the fourth century. Revelation never claims to have been written by an apostle, and John refers to himself as a prophet, and he speaks of the twelve apostles of the lamb as a group with no indication he considered himself as one of them. 

Oh, but he does.

ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ὅσα εἶδεν
who bore witness to the Word of God, even the martyrdom of Jesus Christ, which he saw.

He claims to have witnessed the death of Jesus Christ and, by implication, to have been the author of the fourth gospel.

What is Eusebius doing in this discussion?  He's irrelevant.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Dean J | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 2:24 PM

George Somsel:

Oh, but he does.

ὃς ἐμαρτύρησεν τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ὅσα εἶδεν
who bore witness to the Word of God, even the martyrdom of Jesus Christ, which he saw.

He claims to have witnessed the death of Jesus Christ and, by implication, to have been the author of the fourth gospel.

What is Eusebius doing in this discussion?  He's irrelevant.

This is your proof?

1, the verse isn't talking about the crucifixion, as just about any commentary will tell you, and your view requires a nuance to the word martyr/witness that most (if not all) scholars would not allow for this period, which is why virtually all (if not all) translations render this 'testimony'.

2, even if it were referring to the crucifixion, how would this adjudicate between the two Johns? You said yourself John the Elder wrote John, so why can't we say that the author of Revelation was claiming to be John the Elder? Are you assuming that John the son of Zebedee was the one at the cross and that no other John witnessed it? Do you have any evidence for either of these? 

What's hard to understand about my reference to Eusebius? You claimed that the two Johns were confused prior to the writing of Revelation, I claimed that they were not widely confused before the time of Eusebius.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 4:15 PM

George Somsel:
There really was no Johannine church c 90

There was, however, a thread of theology frequently referred to as "Johannine" e.g. Ignatius of Antioch as an early reference to the Johannine corpus. The NET Bible site has a 2 part introduction http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Johannine%20Theology,%201

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 4:32 PM

At fgh's request I'm not modifying my prior post.

If you do a search on "Johannine Theology" you will find a reading list posted by Paul.

or Excursus: Theories of Johannine Community History logosres:introgosjohn;ref=Page.p_69;off=776  (sorry this is Brown but is a reasonable evaluation)

Melito in the Popular Patristics series is heavily Johannine. We just need to get it out of pre-pub.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 11:06 PM

I couldn't find this.

MJ. Smith:
If you do a search on "Johannine Theology" you will find a reading list posted by Paul.
The Church ~AD70 that gave the Gospel of Jn priority theologically and sacramentally.
Kenneth McGuire:
Can you be a bit clearer about what you mean by the term Johannite Church?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Apr 15 2012 11:32 PM

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 16 2012 7:10 AM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
There really was no Johannine church c 90

There was, however, a thread of theology frequently referred to as "Johannine" e.g. Ignatius of Antioch as an early reference to the Johannine corpus. The NET Bible site has a 2 part introduction http://classic.net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=Johannine%20Theology,%201

Sorry to come late to the party, but my internet connection went down right in the middle of this discussion.

While there is Johannine influence, i.e., influence from the fourth gospel and epistles, there was no "John the Apostle" there to hang it on.  It would appear that the Johannine school is the creation of the shadowy "John the Elder" mentioned by Eusebius.  Thus, depending on how you choose to use the term "Johannine theology" there either is or is not such a theology depending on whether you tie it to John the Apostle.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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