Hesitant to Use Academic Discount Due to Lack of Transferability

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Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 6:18 PM

Hi Dan and Cliff,

Thank you so much for the thoughtful and helpful response.

Though I would have loved a policy that allowed transfers of academic purchases, I understand your position, and am especially thankful that you took the time to fully clarify the policy. I'm sure it was no fun for you having to deliver unpopular news, so thanks for having the courage and integrity to do so.

Once again, I appreciate the time you devoted to addressing this issue.

All the best to you both.

Posts 10120
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 6:46 PM

Dan's answer has GOT to be the nuttiest marketing promotion rationale I have ever read.

Let me understand.

Logos has a significant motivation to 'hook' students for life. What's a lifetime payback? Priceless. It's a luxury that most companies dream of.

But, as Dan notes, the proposed lifetime customers might become 1-year customers (for specific book/s by the way). Just can NOT risk that!

Now, I'm no dummy. Close to it, granted. But 'maybe' a 5-year hiatus on re-sells? But instead Logos goes for a lifetime? For up and coming leaders of believers.

I'm sorry. Dan's scored another win for the nuttiness award.

EDIT: I'm sorry; the more I think about this, the stranger the explanation gets. I'm a lot like Matthew; as soon as I'm 'finished' with my books, I'd happily pass them on gratis. I already do that for my hardcopies. I don't have any 'academic' discount resources. But I did calculate my AVERAGE price-off Logos.com for my library. It's neck and neck with the academic discount. And I can happily give to someone. The seminary guys/gals can't. Wow.

 


Posts 701
ChelseaFC | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 7:45 PM

I love Logos and I can understand this policy even if I don't agree with it. At least it clear from here on out.

However, I will say that quite a few students will be turned off by this policy. Especially if their seminary doesn't require Logos. My seminary does not. I've raved about this program to others, but it'll be a tougher 'sell' to students now. (I get nothing out of it anyway).

Even in the reselling market you at least have the right too sell the books if you want too. There has to be a better middle ground that will benefit the student (if they wanted to resell) and Logos. Although I'm not sure what that is...I'd have kept my base package regardless, but I feel for those who don't have a choice in the matter.(I guess that includes me now).

Just my two pence.

Cheers-Marcus

 

Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 8:48 PM

There definitely should be some exceptions to the rule.  It's absurd to simply say they can't be transferred period.  Some of what you, Dan, said was legitimate.  Some could be argued, I'm sure.  But the bare bones of it, is that there should be exceptions.  If a person dies, they should be able to will their entire library to another person.  Or if a pastor retires from the pulpit for whatever reason, they should be able to pass down their library to their disciple.  Even if you were to make some strict rules about it, that would be countless times better than giving your customers (who are mostly children of God, your brothers and sisters mind you) the shaft.

Come up with something like if a person wants to transfer Academic Discount items then they have to transfer their entire library.  That would make people question transferring class textbooks to a degree.  There might be some who only have a few books in their library, all of which are textbooks.  What about them?  Well, like suggested, require a person to hold onto the resources for 5-10 years before they can transfer them.  At that point, it would not be likely that textbooks would be transferred in this fashion between students to any degree worth mentioning.

If nothing else, what Logos has done is falsely advertise.  I was NOT told that we were not allowed to transfer Academic Discount items when I began my library.  Granted, I don't want to.  I want to keep my resources.  And I'm young and don't plan on dying anytime soon, Lord willing.  However, you have falsely advertised because it obviously isn't well known that we can't transfer our items.  And I know personally, that if I were to die or have something happen to me, I would like to be able to give my library to another, at the very least.  So that may have given me pause when initially purchasing resources from Logos.

Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 9:21 PM

Maybe Logos could implement the restriction on transfers to academic products purchased after a date in the near future (say, after July 31) and grandfather in previous purchases. Just an idea.

Posts 701
ChelseaFC | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 9:27 PM

Now that sounds reasonable.

Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!

Posts 701
ChelseaFC | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 9:31 PM

The grandfathering clause sounds reasonable. The 5-10 year hiatus on transfers seems fair as long as people know this in advance...There are some good and fair points being made here. Hopefully they will be considered.

Cheers-Marcus

Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!

Posts 640
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 10:21 PM

Since my current library was purchased as a student, it cannot be willed out to someone else? Can someone please clarify this? Thanks

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 10:29 PM

Into Grace:

Since my current library was purchased as a student, it cannot be willed out to someone else? Can someone please clarify this? Thanks

Right now, no.  According to Logos' current restrictions, no purchases made using the Academic Discount can be transferred to anyone for any reason.  Feel free to join in the complaint.

Posts 640
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jul 3 2012 10:43 PM

This policy is unacceptable. I would not have purchased. They are not selling these books at a loss.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 3:56 AM

Robert Wazlavek:

Into Grace:

Since my current library was purchased as a student, it cannot be willed out to someone else? Can someone please clarify this? Thanks

Right now, no.  According to Logos' current restrictions, no purchases made using the Academic Discount can be transferred to anyone for any reason.  Feel free to join in the complaint.

I have no resources that were purchased with the Academic Discount, so I really do not have a dog in this fight. However, the blanket non-transferrable restriction seems short-sighted in the extreme. At 75, I must consider that my time on this planet is probably limited. A rule that I cannot even will my library to someone else is a very poor customer service policy.

Dan, it it past time that Logos went back to the drawing board on this one.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 4:09 AM

Dan Pritchett:

In the same way, we have found that many students would like to purchase books for Logos and then return them or resell them when the class is over. This is a drain on our resources and a distraction from the design of our discount program. We created the program to help people save money and enjoy a self-service option that reduced our operating and handling costs. We could create a very comprehensive and complicated system and set of policies to handle all situations that may arise, or we could just simplify things and explain that was not the design of the program.

At this time, we have chosen to go with the simple approach and explain to everyone that Academic Discount Program purchases were not designed to be transferrable.

Folks, I think we're over-reacting here. Dan has been very careful in what he has said, and what he has not said. Just because something wasn't designed for a particular purpose doesn't mean it can never be used for that person. Remember:

Dan Pritchett:

We don't like rules. We like relationships… believe it or not, we still try our best to keep things feeling small and personal, and treat each user as a unique and special human being, that we want as personal a relationship as possible, with.

I take this to mean that if you're a student who has just finished your degree and want to transfer your purchases to another student, then that won't be allowed. On the other hand, if you're a pastor who got several items with an academic discount when you were in college several years ago, and have added to that library since, and have now retired from the ministry and want to transfer your purchases to your son who is going to seminary, then even though the academic program isn't designed to allow transfers, it's worth giving Logos a call and making use of that personal relationship Dan speaks of. No guarantees, of course, but definitely worth a call in the sort of circumstances I've outlined.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 4:26 AM

Mark Barnes:
On the other hand, if you're a pastor who got several items with an academic discount when you were in college several years ago, and have added to that library since, and have now retired from the ministry and want to transfer your purchases to your son who is going to seminary, then even though the academic program isn't designed to allow transfers, it's worth giving Logos a call and making use of that personal relationship Dan speaks of. No guarantees, of course, but definitely worth a call in the sort of circumstances I've outlined.

And that may very well work given Logos' commitment to customer service, but it still leaves too much uncertainty in the process. Policies developed when Logos was a small business sometimes need to be revisited when the company has grown to more than one million registered customers.

 

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 5:00 AM

Mark Barnes:

... even though the academic program isn't designed to allow transfers, it's worth giving Logos a call and making use of that personal relationship Dan speaks of. No guarantees, of course, but definitely worth a call in the sort of circumstances I've outlined.

I get what you're saying.  However, it's the bold that's the problem.  With an issue like this, people need a guarantee.  Logos cannot expect a customer to pay thousands of dollars on a library, and then say, "Well, maybe we'll allow a transfer in your case, but then again, maybe not.  Depends on how we feel at the moment.  You may or may not be able to further God's Kingdom by passing on your resources.  You may or may not see your property disappear into a void upon your death... even though you've paid for these resources just as you would pay for a print book."

I say that facetiously of course.  But I'm sure you understand my point, that this policy goes against Christian principles and the very business model they use in saying our libraries are just like print libraries but electronic.  What's the point of owning a license to a book if I am the only one ever allowed to use that particular book attached to that particular license?  Might as well just loan me the electronic resource.  Part of the right in owning a license to use anything (be it books or music or whatever) is being able to pass on the ownership of that license to another.  Because of Logos policy, some of us have paid thousands of dollars for essentially lifetime loan books that we were initially told we own.  And again, as I mentioned earlier, Logos policy concerning this is not presented upfront and made clear to customers who might make use of the Academic Discount.

What's saddest is that Dan basically said, "Too bad, we like publishers more than you." to Logos customers by what he said, regardless of how nice he said it.  All that which he spouted about the publishers being put out of the loop and unable to make money anymore is sad and all... but we as customers have to pay for it (excuse the pun)?  We get duped by being told we own something, when the reality is that the policy plays out in our "owned" electronic libraries being figuratively burned upon our death so no one else can use them?  This is done with spreading the gospel being important to Logos?  So they'd prevent us from being able to transfer our libraries when possible to help spread the gospel?  And the reasoning we're given is because some students cause a loss to publishers?  What a load.

 

Aside from argumentation like above, I would suggest that if spreading the gospel really is important to Logos, those going into professional or full-time ministry should have a discount without strings attached, period.  I recognize that Logos is a business.  But at some point, Logos has to ask themselves some questions and make some decisions.  Is God, Christ, and the gospel number one to us, so that we'll take every hit when necessarily to further the Kingdom?  Do we trust God to ensure that we, Logos, stay afloat if we do choose this attitude?  Or are we first a business that cannot place total trust in God to ensure our stability, growth, and long life?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 6:14 AM

Robert Wazlavek:
I would suggest that if spreading the gospel really is important to Logos, those going into professional or full-time ministry should have a discount without strings attached, period.

I agree with much of what you have written, and am disappointed in some of what Dan has written. I understand that the concern is the creation of a "used e-book" market which would undercut their business model. Perhaps there are licensing agreements with publishers for these discounts as well. The academic discount makes sense on a number of levels. Generally speaking, students are very short on money. The discount helps them to get Logos when they otherwise might not. Furthermore, if a student starts buying and using Logos in school, they are likely to become a "life long" user. This is beneficial to Logos. If, on the other hand, students could buy a $1000 package for $800 and then sell it to another student for $600 in 4 years, it becomes a losing proposition for Logos and the publishers.

I don't think, however, that your quote above is fair. I assume that the bulk of users are those who are in ministry related vocations. There are many others who are tentmakers - are they not deserving of a discount? If discounts are given to all these people, who is left to buy Logos at "full price"? Dan's illustration of the "rich student" and the "poor missionary" are good ones. If we want to help the "poor missionary" (or tentmaker pastor, etc) it is incumbent upon us to help them out.  When helping these individuals out, it would also be wise stewardship to help them take advantage of the seasonal discounts available, as well as pre-pub & community pricing. Of course, it would be much easier for us to help these individuals out if we could actually purchase gifts for those users directly (hint hint Dan Wink).

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 6:33 AM

Super Tramp:

Sogol:
"Academic product purchases are not-transferable and non-giftable."

I have purchased many resources through Community Pricing, Pre-Pub and super sales that rival the Academic Discount. I, too, am reluctant to mix in a lot of Academic Discount resources with my regular (huge) library that was purchased without restrictions on transferability. My hope is to someday bless a preacher, student or missionary with a great library and no worries of having to sort what is transferable and what is not.

Hopefully we will get clarification directly from Logos soon.

I can understand why Logos would make resources purchased with an academic discount non-transferable world without end (if they do) since it would prevent someone from purchasing at an academic discount then reselling it—a nice little scam.  I think, however, that it would be just as effective if the resources were non-transferable for a set period (say, five years).

george
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יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1875
Paul-C | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 6:45 AM

It seems that users (understandably) want certainty as to whether they could potentially transfer resources bought with academic discount, rather than leaving it to Logos' discretion on a case-by-case basis to decide whether they can do this.

However, there's a potentially bigger issue at stake that I haven't seen anyone comment on (forgive me if anyone has!)

If you refer to the Logos 4 EULA you'll see it states that all transfers - regardless of whether or not they involve resources bought with academic discount - are at the discretion of Logos:

TRANSFERS

 

At Logos' sole discretion you may transfer all your rights to use the Software, Content, and Documentation to another person or legal entity provided you transfer this Agreement, the Software, Content, and Documentation, including all copies, updates and prior versions to such person or entity and that you retain no copies, including copies stored on computer. There will be a processing fee charged on all transfers which is subject to change without notice. As of 6/17/09 the fee is equal to $20.00 per transfer.

 

[Emphasis is my own.]

Posts 10120
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 7:04 AM

Well, Robert ... I crossed the bridge you discuss when Logos4 was introduced. I'm not sure most people realize it but the Logos4 concept shifted the center of gravity 180 degrees from the user (Libronix licenses on the PC, etc) to the publisher (licenses maintained by a reseller, etc).

I became considerably more convinced earlier this year about Logos (which Bob did respond to, and he is a good-guy). But to give them credit where credit is due, they're consistent. I don't expect their behavior to change (or as the OT expresses it 'to turn').


Posts 556
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 7:08 AM

I decided not to use the academic discount because I did not feel that it was worth buying the product if I was not going to technically own it to pass on to someone else. When you buy anything at any other store with a discount, once you walk out with it, it is yours. I think that items purchased with the discount should not be allowed to be re-sold within say a 10 year period so that Logos will not loose profits. If you're not going to truly sell the book to the person then why not just rent it to them for the semester. I would also like it if Logos came up with a deal where they would go ahead and allow us to purchase completely those books that were already bought using the discount. I refuse to use the discount anymore. The difference in savings was minimal in my opinion, especially when the book is not truly yours.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 8:24 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins:
When you buy anything at any other store with a discount, once you walk out with it, it is yours.

Yes. But with Logos, you do not "own" anything… you have a license agreement. It't not the same thing.

Pastor Jesse Blevins:
I think that items purchased with the discount should not be allowed to be re-sold within say a 10 year period so that Logos will not loose profits.

+1

The only thing else I have to add is that this policy is not unusual for academic discounts. I own some expensive Adobe software, which was purchased with an Academic discount. The agreement explicitly states that the software may NOT be resold.

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