Hesitant to Use Academic Discount Due to Lack of Transferability

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Posts 638
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 8:31 AM

Pastor Jesse Blevins:

I decided not to use the academic discount because I did not feel that it was worth buying the product if I was not going to technically own it to pass on to someone else. When you buy anything at any other store with a discount, once you walk out with it, it is yours. I think that items purchased with the discount should not be allowed to be re-sold within say a 10 year period so that Logos will not loose profits. If you're not going to truly sell the book to the person then why not just rent it to them for the semester. I would also like it if Logos came up with a deal where they would go ahead and allow us to purchase completely those books that were already bought using the discount. I refuse to use the discount anymore. The difference in savings was minimal in my opinion, especially when the book is not truly yours.

You are correct. The titles purchased as students are only an illusion. We don't own anything. We have paid to use for as long as we live. Now I have renters remorse.

Every student should be informed before they buy (an illusion) that they really are not buying anything. This would prevent people like me from being scammed. The savings as a student are not substantial, especially given that many titles go on sale below the student academic discount.

I had been telling my wife all along that my purchases would be passed on upon my death. My impression of Logos as a company is not good right now.

 

Posts 701
ChelseaFC | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 8:47 AM

 

After thinking about this a bit more, I'm bummed out by this ruling/policy as well... The product is great but this policy needs to be clear before any package or book rental for students. The differences in academic v. non-discounts should be clear for all to see. If students are happy after having been given the relevant information, then we can happily click buy. I've been with Logos since Feb. and I enjoy the forums, its members, and the product, but this is a bummer.

Chelsea FC- Today is a good day!

Posts 638
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 1:37 PM

alabama24:

Pastor Jesse Blevins:
When you buy anything at any other store with a discount, once you walk out with it, it is yours.

Yes. But with Logos, you do not "own" anything… you have a license agreement. It't not the same thing.

Pastor Jesse Blevins:
I think that items purchased with the discount should not be allowed to be re-sold within say a 10 year period so that Logos will not loose profits.

+1

The only thing else I have to add is that this policy is not unusual for academic discounts. I own some expensive Adobe software, which was purchased with an Academic discount. The agreement explicitly states that the software may NOT be resold.

Adobe software purchased as a student is not a fair comparison. Most of us bought into Logos for digital books.

I am not trying to sell the software. Since I own it my family has a right to it after I die.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 2:17 PM

Into Grace:
Since I own it my family has a right to it after I die.

I agree with you that you should be able to do so. I disagree that you own it – rather you have a license which grants you limited rights and privileges. It may be that the publishers only agree to the academic discount with certain limitations given.

Personally, I believe that a ten year "wait" policy or upon death would be reasonable.

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 2:48 PM

 

alabama24:

I don't think, however, that your quote above is fair. I assume that the bulk of users are those who are in ministry related vocations. There are many others who are tentmakers - are they not deserving of a discount? If discounts are given to all these people, who is left to buy Logos at "full price"? Dan's illustration of the "rich student" and the "poor missionary" are good ones. If we want to help the "poor missionary" (or tentmaker pastor, etc) it is incumbent upon us to help them out.  When helping these individuals out, it would also be wise stewardship to help them take advantage of the seasonal discounts available, as well as pre-pub & community pricing. Of course, it would be much easier for us to help these individuals out if we could actually purchase gifts for those users directly (hint hint Dan Wink).

As I said, the last paragraph in my dissertation there wasn't meant as an argument.  And it wasn't meant as conclusively what I think should happen.  It was more of an example making the point that I think Logos should come up with a better policy that allows for discounts where discounts would be fitting, and that strings wouldn't be attached.

alabama24:

Yes. But with Logos, you do not "own" anything… you have a license agreement. It't not the same thing.

You contradicted yourself.  You own a license.  Even with a paper book, you own a license.  That license allows you to have and use that paper book, and to do with that one particular book and license whatever you want as far as giving it to someone or whatever.  You can't reproduce or copy the material.  But like I said, you now own that particular book and the license attached to it.

alabama24:

I agree with you that you should be able to do so. I disagree that you own it – rather you have a license which grants you limited rights and privileges. It may be that the publishers only agree to the academic discount with certain limitations given.

The bold is the rub.  The owning of the license is what grants the rights and privileges, and one of those privileges by necessity must be the right to give the product and license to another.  Otherwise, some of us were scammed into thinking we were buying something when really we are being loaned something.  We effectively have no rights concerning the product we bought at all, besides the right to use it... which, again, makes the product nothing more than a longterm loan.

And as far as your adobe example goes, I concur that it is not a good example.  Books contained within an electronic library which Logos spouts as comparable to paper books (and therefore the rights concerning them should be comparable), are not readily comparable to a single really expensive software that makes it known up front that you can't resell the product to another if you use their big academic discount.  Again, part of the issue is that Logos has not made these things obviously known.  I had no idea that I couldn't transfer my items until this thread was made because Logos doesn't make it clear enough.

 

And also, you have to remember, Logos is not other companies.  Logos makes a product that is supposed to help spread the gospel, further the Kingdom, and all around glorify God.  The secular market can effectively say, "Screw you." and we're best to just deal with it because that's simply what the world is like.  But in this situation, Logos is blurring the line between loving God and His people and loving the world.  This is not okay.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 3:36 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
The owning of the license is what grants the rights and privileges, and one of those privileges by necessity must be the right to give the product and license to another.  Otherwise, some of us were scammed into thinking we were buying something when really we are being loaned something.  We effectively have no rights concerning the product we bought at all, besides the right to use it... which, again, makes the product nothing more than a longterm loan.

Welcome to the digital world. You own none of the software on your computer, and none of the electronic books in Logos, Kindle, or anywhere else. You never have. I don't like it, but at the moment we have no choice without primary legislation from government.

http://gizmodo.com/369235/amazon-kindle-and-sony-reader-locked-up-why-your-books-are-no-longer-yours

 

Posts 638
Into Grace | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 3:46 PM

Mark Barnes:

Robert Wazlavek:
The owning of the license is what grants the rights and privileges, and one of those privileges by necessity must be the right to give the product and license to another.  Otherwise, some of us were scammed into thinking we were buying something when really we are being loaned something.  We effectively have no rights concerning the product we bought at all, besides the right to use it... which, again, makes the product nothing more than a longterm loan.

Welcome to the digital world. You own none of the software on your computer, and none of the electronic books in Logos, Kindle, or anywhere else. You never have. I don't like it, but at the moment we have no choice without primary legislation from government.

http://gizmodo.com/369235/amazon-kindle-and-sony-reader-locked-up-why-your-books-are-no-longer-yours

 

 

Thanks for the Link, Mark. Sellers can put whatever they want in a license. In the end, it will be subject to the interpretation of courts. I expect the courts will end up siding with the consumer. They purchased something, think they own it and believe they are entitled to rights associated with ownership. The courts will have the final say.

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 3:56 PM

Mark Barnes:

Welcome to the digital world. You own none of the software on your computer, and none of the electronic books in Logos, Kindle, or anywhere else. You never have. I don't like it, but at the moment we have no choice without primary legislation from government.

http://gizmodo.com/369235/amazon-kindle-and-sony-reader-locked-up-why-your-books-are-no-longer-yours

At this point, it's yet to be brought to trial, correct?  The article seemed to present the idea that Amazon, etc, have tried to say what you said is true, but there has been no court decisions.  If that's the case, I imagine this will happen at some point.  We just have to wait.

Again, regardless of what Amazon and whatever other bigs names are doing, the principle stands that Logos is not like other companies.  Logos's sole purpose is rooted in spreading God's Word.  For this reason, Logos must choose between God pursuit or following the world on this one.  If Logos were to openly come on here and say that they are first a business and that God and His glory come second to them, then I personally will drop this whole issue, consider them a secular company, and move on.  Seems like a simple enough solution (for me anyway).  The question is, is Logos prepared to take this route, given it will NOT please the Lord?

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 4:23 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
 The question is, is Logos prepared to take this route, given it will NOT please the Lord?

Are you pretending to know what would or would not please God?  I think we are admonished to obey the law.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 4:49 PM

George Somsel:

Are you pretending to know what would or would not please God?  I think we are admonished to obey the law.

Given that the Word makes it clear that God demands to be first among His people 100% of the time, I'm far from pretending.  Aside from that, I know my Father.  His Spirit in me cries out as to what is pleasing to Him and what is not.  Nice try though. You can believe that it's not possible to know what pleases God if you want.  But that's pure foolishness, and it is obviously so to those who truly know the Word.  And I'm not going to argue with you about it.  (Nor will I argue any semantics if they are brought up.)

What do you mean the law?  God's law?  Man's law?  We're no longer under the Old Covenant.  So you can't mean that.  And we don't have to obey man's law as far as it contradicts God's will, desire, pleasure.  Peter and John made that perfectly clear in Acts, unless they were simply being foolish and not pleasing God in their refusal to conform to the Sanhedrin.  Anyway, quite frankly, I don't care to argue with you about this either.  Simply given you seem to think a person has to pretend to know what pleases God proves that arguing with you is not worth it.

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 5:20 PM

A number of my books were purchased years ago with academic discount... I don't think they represent a huge part of my library, but there are a fair number probably... not sure how to check as it predates what is on my Order page.

In any case, do you know HOW I got the academic price? I called Logos and talked to a sales rep. I didn't know an academic discount even existed. I was just ordering a bunch of books. The rep asked if I was a student, and I said that I was. He then told me about an academic discount. REALLY? COOL! I bought the books at a better price than what I would have paid (although not THAT great a price break). We hung up. At no time was there EVER a mention of not being able to transfer books (this was before forums and all of that stuff, I think, when transferring policies were even first established, to my knowledge). SO there DEFINITELY was not informed consent in my case... and my purchases were probably well before the policy was articulated that academic books can't be transferred. If that had been the case and I was informed... there is no way I would have made those purchases.... poor student or not.

IN ANY CASE.... I have learned to trust Logos... they always make things right. I would also like to see something more concrete, that an exception is made when you die or some such thing. But I think they will do the right thing. I've seen them bend over backwards to do what is right.

And of course, if they don't... I can always just write my name and password on a napkin and slip it to my son on my hospital deathbed. Its not like the hospital is gonna dash off a copy of my death certificate to Logos.

*GULP* .... are they???? ;-)

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 5:55 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
The question is, is Logos prepared to take this route, given it will NOT please the Lord?

Peace, Robert!           *smile*                               and ..              Always Joy in the Lord!

                           How can you possibly know and be confident about such things?                Logos is indeed first of all a business, a great business for which I have been grateful for around 19 years with Logos.                               Why would Logos even put God and His Glory in second place???

                                          I think you might want to "re-work" your post???

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 6:56 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
Given that the Word makes it clear that God demands to be first among His people 100% of the time, I'm far from pretending.  Aside from that, I know my Father.  His Spirit in me cries out as to what is pleasing to Him and what is not.  

In other words, what is pleasing to God is what you want.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 6:58 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

Peace, Robert!           *smile*                               and ..              Always Joy in the Lord!

                           How can you possibly know and be confident about such things?                Logos is indeed first of all a business, a great business for which I have been grateful for around 19 years with Logos.                               Why would Logos even put God and His Glory in second place???

                                          I think you might want to "re-work" your post???

Confident of what?  That God demands first place in our lives and that He is not pleased when He is not first?  The Word makes this clear.

And I have no idea why Logos would put God is second place.  I wasn't supposing that.  I simply presented the evidence of the situation and made clear the choices that Logos has in the matter.  This is a very bad policy that harms customers.  And on top of that, Logos does not make it clear that it even is their policy.  What's worse is that the customers in this case are God's people looking to spread the gospel.  So Logos can either change the policy and/or make the policy very explicit so that they no longer deceive anyone, or they can choose not to do anything and blend in with the world.

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 7:03 PM

George Somsel:

In other words, what is pleasing to God is what you want.

No.  And I'm not foolish enough to play your games.  So you might as well stop baiting and instigating.  You don't know anything about my beliefs, so please do not put words in my mouth.

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 7:19 PM

Robert Wazlavek:
No.  And I'm not foolish enough to play your games.

No, you have your own foolish games to play.  You try to sound oh so pious, but I think it's a fraud.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 570
Rev Chris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 7:26 PM

Robert Wazlavek:

George Somsel:

Are you pretending to know what would or would not please God?  I think we are admonished to obey the law.

Given that the Word makes it clear that God demands to be first among His people 100% of the time, I'm far from pretending.  Aside from that, I know my Father.  His Spirit in me cries out as to what is pleasing to Him and what is not.  Nice try though. You can believe that it's not possible to know what pleases God if you want.  But that's pure foolishness, and it is obviously so to those who truly know the Word.  And I'm not going to argue with you about it.  (Nor will I argue any semantics if they are brought up.)

Not sure why this has turned into a theological discussion, but let's not get so high and mighty that we pretend to know how God is speaking to us about the particulars of how academic discount transferability should be handled, something that does not appear in the Bible.  Issues of ethics in business are far from black and white, and Logos has proven (in my opinion) to be far more ethical in its treatment of customers than many businesses out there.  Being a Christian company does not mean they should behave the same way as a non-profit would, nor does it mean customers should have higher ethical priority than publishers or authors.  We are called to serve the world, not just ourselves.

 

Pastor, seminary trustee, and app developer.  Check out my latest app for churches: The Church App

Posts 325
Robert Wazlavek | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 7:38 PM

George Somsel:

No, you have your own foolish games to play.  You try to sound oh so pious, but I think it's a fraud.

Yes

(I will note however, that in your last few posts you've done nothing but question/criticize me and have not made any effort in the slightest to address the issue at hand in the process.  So your own actions and words prove that you probably shouldn't tell me that.  Seems like there might be a log in your eye.)

Rev Chris:

Not sure why this has turned into a theological discussion, but let's not get so high and mighty that we pretend to know how God is speaking to us about the particulars of how academic discount transferability should be handled, something that does not appear in the Bible.  Issues of ethics in business are far from black and white, and Logos has proven (in my opinion) to be far more ethical in its treatment of customers than many businesses out there.  Being a Christian company does not mean they should behave the same way as a non-profit would, nor does it mean customers should have higher ethical priority than publishers or authors.  We are called to serve the world, not just ourselves.

You're right.  The issues are tough, and not totally clear by any means.  I apologize for presenting them as 100% clear, as I've never even had that in mind.  However, I did present good evidence for my position.  Evidence that should be considered.  It's good to claim the unclearness is there.  It's not good to claim the unclearness makes evidence invalid and a certain position isn't supported better than the others.  (I'm not in any way saying that's what you're doing.  Just making a statement.)

Posts 255
Sogol | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 10:10 PM

I think this thread has generated many good points and concerns, and I hope Logos will consider and respond to them. Some of my takeaways include the following:

- Some longtime Logos users appear to have been unaware that the academic transfer restriction existed prior to reading this thread. Accordingly, they purchased resources not knowing that part of their libraries were non-transferable, and they are now very disappointed with the situation. Might Logos allow such previously purchased resources to be grandfathered into a status which allows them to be transferred?

- Along the lines of the previous point, it appears that it would be good for Logos to provide significantly greater disclosure to academic buyers about the transfer restriction so that more users are not caught off-guard by it.

- There were several mentions of people being okay with a compromise that requires a long-term holding period before academic purchases could be transferred (1, 2, 5, or even10 years).

- I should probably restate how I feel and how I think most of us on this thread feel: though we would like the ability to transfer resources purchased with the academic discount, we really have little or no desire to give up any of the Logos resources own (at least for as long as we are alive). Thus permitting academic resources to be transferred is very unlikely to generate a lot of (if any) new transfer requests from us. It is far more of an ideological issue - having the option to transfer all the resources we own gives us a significantly stronger sense of ownership of our libraries, and knowing that we are restricted from doing so hurts our experience as Logos users and lowers our perceived value of our Logos libraries.

- There still appears to be some lack of clarity about whether or not academic resources can be left to others via one's will. Perhaps Logos could provide final clarity on this one more time.

- I believe there were some interesting mentions of viewing academic purchases as more like renting than ownership (perhaps a very long-term rental with one upfront payment, but still a rental). Though I'm guessing that the publishers would probably be strongly opposed, Logos may want to consider allowing academic users to rent resources for a finite period at a fraction of the purchase cost. This would provide a much closer experience to what students currently have with physical textbooks - you buy textbooks and use them for a semester and then sell them and recoup some of your costs.

One final point from me.....

When I decided to abandon my physical library and replace it with Logos resources (a VERY scary decision for me), I did not approach it as if I was replacing physical books with digital books. Instead, I saw it as replacing physical books with a service. Like any service, it's only as good as the service provider, and my research showed that Logos was about as trustworthy a service provider I could find.

A particularly important aspect of Logos for me is that they provide a service which looks a lot more like traditional ownership of a library. I think all signs from this thread and others is that many Logos users feel the same way. And though I understand and respect Logos' decision to not allow transfers of academic resources (and I do not think they are being unreasonable nor unethical with this decision), I think that policy is unfortunately a blow against one of the most important aspects of Logos' value proposition to its customers....... the sense of owning one's library.

Thanks again to Logos and everyone else who is participating in this thread. Please keep the helpful comments coming!

Posts 2762
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 4 2012 11:44 PM

I really don't understand what all the whining is about.  I knew academic purchases were not transferable, and I really didn't have to look very hard.  The academic rep let me know, and it was clearly stated in whatever agreement I saw at the time.

This isn't that hard folks...if you bought resources at an academic discount and want to transfer them, call Logos and offer them the difference in price to 'upgrade' your resource to the non-academic level.  Then transfer them.  Some have complained in this thread that if they'd known about the transferability issue, the wouldn't have used the academic discount.  So undo it.  Call Logos and pay what you would have paid in the first place (since you said that's what you'd have done.)

To demand Logos allow you to transfer a resource at the significant discount that some other person may not have earned smacks of theft to me. I'm not a fanboy, but to read the talk about Logos not pleasing God because their policy costs someone some extra money is nuts.  If (big if) the Holy Spirit is involved in any way in how Logos is priced or how policy is made, I'd bet my lunch money for the next three months that the Holy Spirit speaks to those responsible for the administration of Logos rather than to some random customer!

If I ever choose to transfer any of my resources to anyone, I'll call Logos and ask them what I need to do to get that done.  If it is more expensive than is worth the trouble, I won't do the transfer.  I don't anticipate that happening...if my kids ever get to the point they want the software, they'll buy their own copy, I'm sure. I don't know of any software on my computers that I'm seriously worried about transferring to anyone...if I up-and-die, I have no idea what they'll do with all my software, but I'm really not concerned that it'll be a worry to me once I've assumed room temperature.

I've bought academic-priced software since I was an undergrad...and have *never* expected to pass it on to anyone.  To expect Logos to be held to a higher standard than other software companies, especially in the name of something vaguely spiritual, is bizarre.  If they were charging folks to hear the gospel, we'd have a legitimate complaint.  To gripe about their policies with regard to a software product is immature and selfish, in my opinion. But then, a perusal of these forums ruins all novelty when it comes to the level of selfishness of believers.  (At least I know I'm not the only one with too high a self-esteem and desperately in need of hearing the gospel.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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