Logos has compounded my annoyance!

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Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jul 6 2012 6:15 AM

OK, so I am already annoyed by the fact that so many good books are strategically placed in sets by Logos so that we will spend more money, not because of requirements by publishers as has been strongly implied in the past.  Then we had the thread about Beale's New Testament Theology which many have wanted for a long time (as it was asked for here, here, and here), but which is now only available in the Baker Academic Collection (10 vols).  Well now I get an email from Logos reviewing just the Beale volume from the set, disregarding all of the other 9 books in the collection, and then at the end of the review it says,

"Read this book. Not only does it include Beale’s magisterial New Testament theology—you also get the excellent Dictionary of Scripture and Ethics (edited by Joel Green), Michael Gorman’s very useful and practical Elements of Biblical Exegesis: A Basic Guide for Students and Ministers, and a few other real gems."

Really?!?  So if I buy Beale's work for $209.00 then you'll go ahead and throw in the other books.  I appreciate that...

Logos is obviously playing on the fact that we really wanted the work by Beale (many people asked for it beforehand via the threads above), and now we are being raked over the coals.  This is not right.

HULK SMASH!!!!!!!

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 6:50 AM

I agree with the sentiment, though I've yet to turn into a hulk from annoyance.

I did not, however, receive the email you mentioned, in spite of having posted in those threads.  I wonder if they sent it just to you. Wink

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Posts 130
Robert J Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 6:59 AM

I don't think we can fault Logos for wanting to make a profit. And this could (and probably is) a case of the publisher requiring these books to be published as a collection. But typically, over the years, I have seen Baker collections of all types eventually broken up and sold as individual titles. I own many titles that I acquired that way. Be patient and you may yet get you Beale theology as an individual title for a lot less money.

Posts 612
Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 8:02 AM

I agree it's a scam--the one major league book you want gets bundled with 9 minor leaguers. I feel the same way about the Eerdman's New Testament bundle. I only want Bruner's commentary on John, but have to take the others with it.

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 8:22 AM

I want the individual Beale volume, too. However, why it is that more often than not the worst motive is ascribed to Logos at the outset?

 

Lenovo P72: Intel 8th Gen i7-8750H 6-core, 32GB RAM, 2TB HDD + 1TB Sata SSD, 17.3" FHD 1920x1080, NVIDIA Quadro P600 4GB, Win 10 Pro

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 8:57 AM

What is the difference between http://www.logos.com/product/5321/commentary-on-the-new-testament-use-of-the-old-testament

and the book with a similar name in this Baker set?

Posts 2025
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:00 AM

Todd Phillips:

I agree with the sentiment, though I've yet to turn into a hulk from annoyance.

I did not, however, receive the email you mentioned, in spite of having posted in those threads.  I wonder if they sent it just to you. Wink

LOL, now that would be cruel and unusual!

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 2025
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:04 AM

Mark:

What is the difference between http://www.logos.com/product/5321/commentary-on-the-new-testament-use-of-the-old-testament

and the book with a similar name in this Baker set?

The one in the link you provided goes through the entire new testament and then points out every place where there is a reference, or possible reference, to the Old Testament.  The one in the set is actually a theology of the entire Bible, which points out the consistency in which God's plan has been implemented throughout the entire Bible.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 1977
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:05 AM

Yes, but there is a second book in the set that appear similar to this one.  Do you think it is the same?

 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:15 AM

As I pointed out in another thread, Logos seems to be having serious issues publishing Baker Academic titles that supposedly went into production over a year ago. Since we have had no info on why this is so, there may be an on-going issue with Baker (recall their abrupt removal of their texts from Logos libraries). While I'd be glad to hear if Baker is behind this bundling, Logos could have a reason besides profit or bigger sales for doing this. Then again that could be the whole enchilada. Silence breeds suspicion.

I want Beale not the Bundle.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:19 AM

Mark:

Yes, but there is a second book in the set that appear similar to this one.  Do you think it is the same?

 

No. It is a handbook not a commentary. It explains the methodology of the commentary and how one should go about interpreting the use of the OT in the NT, but it is not a commentary and is not the same text.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2025
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:19 AM

D Bouey:

I want the individual Beale volume, too. However, why it is that more often than not the worst motive is ascribed to Logos at the outset?

 

I don't assume that at the outset, but over a long period of action on the part of Logos.  If you notice, I don't think that they have ever explicitly blamed the publishers for making Logos bundle their works.  Instead, they always explain it away with something like, "Sometimes the publisher requires certain things from Logos..."  It is a lot like lawyer speak.

I will take Logos at their word though.  If someone from Logos says explicitly that this set is a set because Baker requires it, then I will be satisfied that Logos is doing what they can.

I also point out again that a lot of the sets that Logos says that they can't break up are sold by other companies individually.  Olive Tree, which now has a desktop app, sells NIVAC and NICOT/NT individually, so either Logos is the one deciding to sell those books in sets, or whoever they have negotiating with the publishers is not doing a very good job on behalf of Logos customers.

I love my Logos software, and I continue to buy a lot of books, both in sets and individually, but I don't feel like customers are being treated fairly, and I don't think that Logos is being honest if they imply that publishers are requiring books to be sold in sets when that is not the case. 

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

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Steve Clevenger | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 9:42 AM

It greatly annoyed me when Logos placed Beale in a set for $209. Lightning

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 10:17 AM

I really don't like buying bundles when I only want a handful or less of the works, and I only have so much money to spend.  I sometimes feel really annoyed in those scenarios.  I love Beale, too.  A couple works in that collection look good, too, but a lot look like filler to me.  I may or may not buy.  Probably not in my present context.

Joseph Turner:
Olive Tree, which now has a desktop app, sells NIVAC and NICOT/NT individually, so either Logos is the one deciding to sell those books in sets, or whoever they have negotiating with the publishers is not doing a very good job on behalf of Logos customers.

I remember wanting access to the ACC (Ancient Christian Commentary) on my desktop app through Laridian (which has developed interfaces for a variety of mobile and desktop systems.  Laridian told me they only were allowed to have the ACC accessible via handdhelds like my Palm.  However you could get ACC through Logos on desktop. Go figure.

I just chalk it up to the ever-fluid world of contract negotiations and timing.  I no longer think of anything nefarious, or, as I used to say due to "stupidity".  It's just the way it is.  Relatedly when I read your comment:

Joseph Turner:
I don't feel like customers are being treated fairly, and I don't think that Logos is being honest

I have never experienced Logos not treating me or customers unfairly or being dishonest.  What I have experienced at times is that one department write-up did not match another's, or that a new policy was not reflected in an older write up, etc., which are a matter of communication, inter-departmental congruence, and oversight.  And in all cases, when those inconsistencies were pointed out, Logos rectified the situation.

While I don't always like bundles, I have learned to expect their necessity, and I have also found that many are often broken up.  Someday I expect this to change, whether the digital world finally grows into its own or new, more efficient models are adopted.

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 127
Robert I | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 10:43 AM

There are 2 works bundled in $1600 commentary sets that I can never get for the Logos software and have to continue to use my Olivetree for.  I wanted the Gordon Fee commentary on 1st Corinthians, along with FF Bruce's stuff.  There is one other guy, Mounce, but that is it and that would total maybe $200-$300, which I could buy one a month to break up the set and defer the costs.  Yeah, they have payment plans, but financing $1600 over 18 payments is still too much. 

I think it is a missed opportunity in the very fast and quickly developing digital books age.  Inability to adapt and move with the market is what puts one company out of business and surges one into the forefront.  I really like Logos, but I hope they consider this a bit more.  On a personal note, I think they are missing a HUGE revenue stream from a purely a business side.  More volumes sold individually than complete sets allow for a higher profit margin and ultimately higher revenue.  I want them to stay in business, have capital for R&D, and continue to improve.

Remaining in Him (1 John 2:28), Robert

Mac Book Pro, Windows 7 Professional, iPhone 4S, iPad 1

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 11:02 AM

Todd Phillips:

I agree with the sentiment, though I've yet to turn into a hulk from annoyance.

I did not, however, receive the email you mentioned, in spite of having posted in those threads.  I wonder if they sent it just to you. Wink

BTW:  Happy birthday.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jul 6 2012 3:36 PM

I think one of the problems is that in the case of a ten volume set for example, if only one is popular and the other 9 are not, there would not be enough profit incentive to produce the other 9 less popular volumes that just wouldn't sell individually.  The solution then would be to produce the one popular book that would sell and just not do the other nine.  Personally, I'd rather be a part of the system that has all the volumes available to me rather than have someone decide for me what I can and cannot have.   And, as someone has pointed out, in time, the individual volumes often become available.

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 7 2012 7:29 AM

again, let's turn to history: recording industry was bundling 1 or 2 good singles with a dozen of filler songs on a CD and customers started to reject this practice and insist on individual song purchases. This is now the norm. If you don't like something, don't get annoyed - vote with your wallet.

Posts 498
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 7 2012 7:48 AM

We could just go and buy the print volume. We still remember how to use those, right? Big Smile

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jul 7 2012 8:08 AM

toughski:

again, let's turn to history: recording industry was bundling 1 or 2 good singles with a dozen of filler songs on a CD and customers started to reject this practice and insist on individual song purchases. This is now the norm. If you don't like something, don't get annoyed - vote with your wallet.

If you survey the history of the recording industry, you will find that originally singles were recorded on 78 rpm disks because that's about all that would fit (OK, one on each side).  Then came 45 rpms which would accomodate more in the same surface area, but the disks were smaller which meant that only 1 or 2 selections could appear on each disk.  After that came the 33 ⅓ rpm which almost demanded more cuts per side in order to avoid wasting space.  Then came CDs which likewise required more selections to avoid waste space.  Now we have the ability to download mp3s which allow the purchase of single numbers without penalty.  It wasn't simply a matter of insistance on the ability to purchase individual songs which drove this.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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