This thread is beginning to scare me.... eeeek!
Matthew C Jones: The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement: "For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. " "installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??" Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
I fully agree. That's not what I'm talking about (and I wasn't directly addressing the original subject).
My minor children under my roof can use the books in my print library, even though I bought them. Print books by their nature generally only allow one user at a time, unless we are reading something together. Likewise with movies and CDs. Copying is not considered legitimate sharing; neither is sending someone else your licenses for their use.
If I had adult children living away from home, I would expect them to buy their own copies of CDs, movies, etc. Now, here is where it gets sticky. I could legally send one of those grown children a CD that I own, but the trend in DRM is pushing toward non-transferable per-user licenses. Admittedly, digital media makes theft of materials much easier but that is not a valid reason to undermine personal property rights of the end user.
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
Richard DeRuiter: Ariyl: EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Ariyl:
EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? Can your mind comprehend the circumstances of many people having minor children that don't live with them and thus have the need to email them info for various reasons? Can you grasp the problem of having minor children who could no longer use this software without the risks that are being spoken of here? If you can grasp how one's child cannot use this software without said risks, why in the world are you throwing these outlandish and irrelevant assumptions in here?! Because not once have you spoken up for the children in this predicament. So I now question your motives here. TRY TO FOCUS ON THAT instead of irrelevant assumptions. So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
Matt:My wife wouldn't 'get' a virtual machine, and all sorts of problems would ensue
That reason alone is good enough to abandon this solution.
Matt: However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
I think it is more the newest paradigm of software engineering. The immense control the mothership gains would be scary if they were not Christians. Logos 4 will route out all the dishonest users who install one license on multiple computers. There are logs made of what ISP you log on from, what computer Media Access Code your network card has and these can be compared to find multiple users of one license. It is the wave of the future in software pirating protection.
The ONLY drawbacks I see is the damage other users can cause to the notes & account purchases. I am HOPING no pastor is keeping detailed counseling notes in the cloud. That would be a serious violation of law & confidentiality.
Here is another possible solution: If you have Version 3, install that side by side with Version 4. Allow the children to use Version 3. They will have most of the fine resources and still not be able to mess up too much.
...
Ariyl: Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? (They were not assumptions, you posted it) (Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house) (Motive: To stop) So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. (Too late) I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions?
(They were not assumptions, you posted it)
(Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house)
(Motive: To stop)
So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply.
(Too late)
I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I was going to refrain... and I'll kick myself for getting involved with this thread....
But ...I'm near speechless by the way you communicate Ariyl. And I'm not about to lecture anybody (mainly because it wouldn't help) but there are any number of verses in Scripture that you've been violating by the way you are communicating. WOW...
Logos has EVERY right to protect THEIR software from being missused/abused. If you don't like a companies policies you have the freedom to shop elsewhere or don't buy at all. When you DO purchace YOU ARE agreeing to the terms... (a few veres could be posted on that as well)
Ariyl:I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I knew a fellow who swore off driver's licenses, income tax, marriage licenses and ended up helping his brother blow up the Alfred P Murrah building killing a bunch of little children in the process. I lost 8 friends in that bombing because a man threw off God-ordained government.
These babies lived next door to me: They died here:
I am sorry your minor children don't get to live with you.. If you are not doing evil, you have nothing to fear of those who minister for God by punishing lawbreakers with the sword.
Larry Schmid: Matthew C Jones: The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement: "For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. " "installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??" Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.) You are "disturbed" by the statement? By what part? By the part that you hand picked and are ASSUMING the worst of, and don't care to realize the inherent legitimate problem? Is everyone a one track minded pessimist? ITS AN EXAMPLE! Did you read or comprehend that part? So Bob was talking about minor children that don't live with a parent? I doubt it. I think you are being deceptive with that quote. Regardless of a parent with children abroad scenario, it seems that no one can or wants to comprehend ANY legitimate scenario...so they would rather drift off into irrelevant, assumptions and make statements agaiinst it (to the detriment of children). Because here is an easy to understand scenario: Many parents have minor children at home and the children can no longer use this software, because of the inherent dangers mentioned here. But has anyone spoken up for the children here for such an obvious and real scenario? So sad, it's a SHAME. Maybe I should not have posted this and sat back with the same uncaring selfish attitude and watch everyone pay heavily down the road by losing all their life's work due to the "great Sync feature". It will indeed be hilarious if nothing is ever done about it, knowing you all had somenone informing you before hand. You can now go back to sleep, it was just a dream...
You are "disturbed" by the statement? By what part? By the part that you hand picked and are ASSUMING the worst of, and don't care to realize the inherent legitimate problem? Is everyone a one track minded pessimist? ITS AN EXAMPLE! Did you read or comprehend that part?
So Bob was talking about minor children that don't live with a parent? I doubt it. I think you are being deceptive with that quote. Regardless of a parent with children abroad scenario, it seems that no one can or wants to comprehend ANY legitimate scenario...so they would rather drift off into irrelevant, assumptions and make statements agaiinst it (to the detriment of children). Because here is an easy to understand scenario: Many parents have minor children at home and the children can no longer use this software, because of the inherent dangers mentioned here. But has anyone spoken up for the children here for such an obvious and real scenario? So sad, it's a SHAME. Maybe I should not have posted this and sat back with the same uncaring selfish attitude and watch everyone pay heavily down the road by losing all their life's work due to the "great Sync feature". It will indeed be hilarious if nothing is ever done about it, knowing you all had somenone informing you before hand. You can now go back to sleep, it was just a dream...
"Save the Children!"
Kids need saving from video games more than rescue from Bible software. Youtube & facebook & MySpace are much more dangerous than BobP and the Logos family. Public school political indoctrination is more dangerous than praying & hearing the 10 commandments. Cell phones & iPods are threatening kids as we speak.
There is a spiritual war going on for the souls of our children. Few people have blessed my family like the Logos people. I think your hostilities are misplaced.
Matthew C Jones:I think it is more the newest paradigm of software engineering.
Just to clarify, if Logos had wanted to ensure only a single user on the machine could use Logos 4, they could have enabled their software to only install for a single user quite simply, and still have adhered to standard Windows installer practices. Truly, installing the program into Application Data is akin to installing the program into the System32 directory in terms of paradigms. Ultimately, based upon the fact that they are still having rights issues within AppData, I'm hopeful that they'll learn from their mistake and re-evaluate how they are installing in Windows environments. That being said, I saw in another post you made that you have 13 children! Congratulations and I hope that they are as much a blessing to you as my four are to me.
Matt
Specs: Windows 7 x64 Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2 16GB RAM Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed
Jeremiah Daniel Morris: Ariyl: Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? (They were not assumptions, you posted it) (Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house) (Motive: To stop) So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. (Too late) I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome. I was going to refrain... and I'll kick myself for getting involved with this thread.... But ...I'm near speechless by the way you communicate Ariyl. And I'm not about to lecture anybody (mainly because it wouldn't help) but there are any number of verses in Scripture that you've been violating by the way you are communicating. WOW... Logos has EVERY right to protect THEIR software from being missused/abused. If you don't like a companies policies you have the freedom to shop elsewhere or don't buy at all. When you DO purchace YOU ARE agreeing to the terms... (a few veres could be posted on that as well)
You are seriously disillusioned about Scripture and are living dangerous and foolishly concerning it. In fact, Scripture says your own standard of judgment could very well condemn you. So for example, If YOU come to find that the Creator does not forgive you just because you called on and believed in "Jesus" (but actually wanted obedience and exclusive worship of His actual Hebrew Name (Yahshua), then your standard of judgment will condemn you, since you "agreed" and accepted "jesus" instead as binding, although deceptive. Scripture teaches that one is not punished for being deceived, yet you have made it so you WILL get punished for being deceived. You like to uphold and be justified by deceptive words rather than truth?
But I hold no such obstinate belief. I am mindful that man makes errors and therefore cannot force my mind to believe his words are perfect and binding. Only what is TRUE is binding.
Dan Pritchett:Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
Ah, come on ... only three? This is what I was ready to build into my parallels when L4 came out:
I think my research was accurate.
Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
*kicking self
Ariyl: "Jesus" (but actually wanted obedience and exclusive worship of His actual Hebrew Name (Yahshua),
Oh, and I thought this was about Logos being unfair to children........ My Jewish grandmother would say it isn't kosher to cast pearls before swine.
Jeremiah Daniel Morris: *kicking self
(Matthew C Jones takes off his prosthetic leg and kicks himself too.) Ouch.
Ariyl:But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
This is commendable. However, it also carries the responsibility to not purchase a product for which you are unwilling to accept the conditions of that purchase. It becomes the equivalent of "stealing" just as using pirated copies of DVD, CD, books, etc. is stealing. True, you could correctly claim that there is no indication that the concept of intellectual property at the time the 10 Commandments were delivered. But then again, there is little evidence of personal property (in contrast to family property) at that time.
Ariyl:Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.
You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
Matt:All of this because Logos decided to install their program files into the user's AppData folder, a practice which I have never witnessed (nor had I witnessed it when 'Documents and Settings\Application Data' ruled the roost). I'm not attempting to be unfair to the engineers at Logos, because from what I've witnessed in their software and their developer blogs, they have some very good people. However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
IMHO the Sync paradigm has driven this method of installation, which in turn was driven by L3 usage and Support(CS) statistics. It is quite clear that other L4 users on their computer can mess around with each other's preferences, documents and method of working. The same will happen if L4 is installed on another computer, because sync'ing is based on the single user who has the licence to the resources! And that single L3 user would go to great lengths to synchronise their various legitimate installations; some LAN based, some "cloud" based. In an attempt to perfect some of the faults of this and also to improve support costs re: missing resource (and some piracy concerns) we have this method of installation and "cloud" based resource management keeping our resources in sync with our licence and other legitimate installation.
L4 poses greater moral issues than L3 ever did in turns of keeping within the terms of the (essentially same) EULA, whilst trying to support the same examples of "fair use" that Bob has provided ie. how do I allow my children their own access to my software on MY computer. L4's method would fly in the face of a Windows architectural decision that allows multiple user accounts, where they have been been concerned with the security and integrity of their operating system in light of the same circumstances (see the progression from Windows 98 to more secure user accounts in Windows XP and beyond; even to their free, not-well-known, software that can be installed to impose greater restrictions on standard user accounts than the parent OS, especially in the case of Windows XP Home).
So yes, I am concerned, particulalrly as L4 poses particular problems for installation for users who operate a standard user account, or even a Power User account where admin privilige is required and may still be required during an update. The other problems of multiple large downloads & indexing are well documented and constitute another part of the moral burden referred to above ie. are there legitimate ways to avoid multiple downloading and indexing beyond what may/may not be provided by use of a Logos DVD? I believe that the answer is almost certainly "Yes"! And if pirates didn't find a way then users would (one can browse the Forum for unsupported methods).
So we have (complicated) ways to do what was allowed with Libronix, except for the sync'ing of user preferences and user documents. The ultimate solution for that is in the hands of Logos because there is no provision for an L4 Administrator or multiple sign-in's!
Dave===
Windows PC, Android phone
What point don't you understand, Richard? That statement itself says you probably have not even comprehended the problems from the start. I gave an (singular) EXAMPLE of people having children (minor children) who can no longer safely allow their children to use the software anymore. Whatever is done on their install will affect your own settings. It will manipulate and/or ruin years of your own notes, settings etc. Do you understand that if you install this new software on another machine or for another User, everything that is done on that Machine/User is SYNCED with the other User? I KNOW OF NO ONE that doesn't mind having their own personal settings tampered with or ruined by what someone else does on their own account. It is a serious error in design.
If you can't comprehend that scenario, then think of your machine getting stolen. Whatever that thief does to your Logos 4 will be instantly SYNCED to their servers. So when/if you can afford to install it on a new machine, VOILA! All your years work, settings, notes, markups etc may be GONE, 'cause that thief is having fun with your Logos 4!
There are MANY scenarios, but apparently no one wants to see or think of them (reminds me of blind faith).
Matt: Truly, installing the program into Application Data is akin to installing the program into the System32 directory in terms of paradigms.
I am still thinking this change has more to do with some philosophical move than technical. I have not kept up with Microsoft's developments for a few years. When the Framework and .net changes came I retired form the keep up with Johnny game. I do suspect having the Microsoft Certified Partner haunting the halls of Logos HQ could be related. The MCPs do effect changes, more than we know.
If this whole new method of installing was not guided by higher advisors I am truly amazed the Logos team got it functioning as well as they did. It is a a new breed.
Matt:13 children! Congratulations and I hope that they are as much a blessing to you as my four are to me.
(Yep, it is a privilege to raise these children.. Not easy, but a blessing.)
Michael Birney: I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want. You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
From where have you deceived yourself into believing that you have ponted out that I am breaking the law by sharing Logos? Are you going to cite man's roman law to me and demand that I have faith in it? That would be foolish. You sure aren't going to cite the Truth.
Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now. Oh, I see who you have love for...