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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Aug 11 2009 2:07 PM

It would be helpful to have a forum on which one could ask content questions e.g. "Does anyone know where I might find a list of scripture appearing in the Jewish prayer book?" or "I've seen a reference to King David consolidating the 613 commandments into 11; does anyone know where I might find them?" or "Does anyone know where I could find a description of 'pattern theology'? I ran into the term in an article on Bible Study by Hicks?' or "Someone in the forum referenced 2 Chroncles as the last book of the Bible. Anyone know what version that could be?"

Yes, I realize that such a forum could devolve into theology debates of the personal attack variety - but it could also be a great way to discover what Logos resources would answer the questions and what links would be useful in the topic dataset..

Answers to the sample questions:

1) I'm still looking for the Siddur scriptural references ... short of doing it by hand

2) http://www.judaic.org/teachersguide/tehillim/L9%20-%20Eleven%20Commandments%20-%20Source%20Sheet.pdf

3) see Pattern Theology in files forum (or the source documents)

4) see Bullinger appendices in files forum ... probably not the best answer but ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 2:42 PM

MJ. Smith:
Someone in the forum referenced 2 Chroncles as the last book of the Bible. Anyone know what version that could be?"

That would be in the Jewish order of the texts.  See The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church, Roger Beckwith.  

29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Thus you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your ancestors. 33 You snakes, you brood of vipers! How can you escape being sentenced to hell? 34 Therefore I send you prophets, sages, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come upon this generation.

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Mt 23:29-36). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
Here the entire OT is included in this since the murder of Abel occurs in Gen and that of Zechariah (not the son of Berachiah !) occurs in 2 Chron.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 3:58 PM

George Somsel:
That would be in the Jewish order of the texts.

Or more precisely, Masorictic Jewish order ...  er, ah, unless you see Ginsberg's chart at  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table.jsp?table_id=50&volid=3&title=BIBLE%20CANON:   Although the the sense of sequence as applied to scrolls vs. books is an interesting issue, isn't it?  The classical reference for sequence is Baraita in B. B. 14b, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia - what was its date?  Just curious, do the Karaites use the same ordering?

Isn't is wonderful how complex a simple question can be?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 4:44 PM

MJ. Smith:

George Somsel:
That would be in the Jewish order of the texts.

Or more precisely, Masorictic Jewish order ...  er, ah, unless you see Ginsberg's chart at  http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/table.jsp?table_id=50&volid=3&title=BIBLE%20CANON:   Although the the sense of sequence as applied to scrolls vs. books is an interesting issue, isn't it?  The classical reference for sequence is Baraita in B. B. 14b, according to the Jewish Encyclopedia - what was its date?  Just curious, do the Karaites use the same ordering?

Isn't is wonderful how complex a simple question can be?

The Jewish order reflected in the later editions of the texts is as I stated and is based upon lists of books from the time when they were exclusively in scrolls.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 5:11 PM

George Somsel:
The Jewish order reflected in the later editions of the texts is as I stated

Yet the Jewish Encyclopedia describes the following sequences for the Hagiographa:

"The order of the Hagiographa in the Talmud is as follows: Ruth, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Canticles, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Daniel, Esther, Ezra, Chronicles (but see "Halakot Gedolot," ed. Hildesheimer, p. 633)....This sequence is found in different manuscripts, with the exception that in some, Proverbs immediately precedes Job, or Canticles precedes Ecclesiastes, and Esther precedes Daniel. The sequence differs among the Masoretes, who, according to Elijah Levita ("Massoret ha-Massoret," p. 120; ed. Ginsburg, p. 67), follow the Sephardic arrangement, which is as follows: Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Canticles, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra. The German manuscripts give another sequence: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the five Megillot, Daniel, Ezra, and Chronicles, the five Megillot following the order in which they are now read in the synagogue—Canticles, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther. Many other variations, however, are found in the different manuscripts.

"The sequence of the Hagiographa in the Alexandrian canon must also be mentioned, as it not only differs from the Jewish canon in the order of the several books, but also includes a number of works not recognized as canonical in Palestine. Here the Book of Ruth follows Judges; I Ezra and II Ezra (Ezra and Nehemiah) follow the Chronicles; and Esther follows the apocryphal Tobit and Judith, which follow I and II Ezra; of the other books, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Canticles, as the specifically poetical books, are placed together; Lamentations is an appendix to Jeremiah (between Baruch and the Letter of Jeremiah); and the Book of Daniel follows, and ranks with, the three greater prophets. Through the Vulgate this sequence was, on the whole, adopted by Luther in his Bible."

See why I'm still into asking the questions?

====

I'm also interested in your statement (not uncommon) "Here the entire OT is included in this since the murder of Abel occurs in Gen and that of Zechariah (not the son of Berachiah !) occurs in 2 Chron."

Are there other occurrences in the literature in which "Abel to Zechariah" is used to refer to the entire OT? If it is a common expression of the NT times, that would be further support for the sequence that ends in Chronicles as being the one known in the "popular mind".

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 5:30 PM

MJ. Smith:
"The order of the Hagiographa in the Talmud is as follows: Ruth, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Canticles, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Daniel, Esther, Ezra, Chronicles (but see "Halakot Gedolot," ed. Hildesheimer, p. 633)....This sequence is found in different manuscripts, with the exception that in some, Proverbs immediately precedes Job, or Canticles precedes Ecclesiastes, and Esther precedes Daniel. The sequence differs among the Masoretes, who, according to Elijah Levita ("Massoret ha-Massoret," p. 120; ed. Ginsburg, p. 67), follow the Sephardic arrangement, which is as follows: Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Canticles, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Esther, Daniel, Ezra. The German manuscripts give another sequence: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the five Megillot, Daniel, Ezra, and Chronicles, the five Megillot following the order in which they are now read in the synagogue—Canticles, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther. Many other variations, however, are found in the different manuscripts.

I am referring to the accepted order at the time of the NT, not that of a later period.  There were some minor variations such as Ruth, Jonah, Esther, but the general order was as I described it.  Beckwith details all of this.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 11 2009 7:10 PM

George Somsel:
Beckwith details all of this.

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of Beckwith and my knowledge of his strengths and weaknesses may be unreliable. His position, as you state it, differs from McDonald and The Jewish Study Bible which are the books I have easily at hand.

For me, the issue of the order at the time of the NT would have to be divided into 2 questions - that in Palestine and that of the Greek-speaking Jewish. For a more comprehensive answer, I'd need to compare the evidence of the Masorectic text, the Septuagint, the Targums and the Peshitta. I know I don't have the skills to make such a genuinely informed judgement. So, at this moment, I'll go along with the JPS Study Bible and McDonald - sources I know rather than with Beckwith - a source I don't know. Feel free to label such a choice "arbitrary" - but my reading stack is so high I'd be foolish to add Beckwith to the stack; he'd have to come out of Bible study and prayer time. :-)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 16 2009 5:07 PM

I just ran into some additional information of this topic:

"The Jewish textual tradition never finalized the order of the books in Ketuvim. The Babylonian Talmud (Bava Batra 14b-15a) gives their order as follows: Ruth, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Lamentations of Jeremiah, Daniel, Scroll of Esther, Ezra, Chronicles.

In Tiberian masoretic codices including the Aleppo Codex and the Leningrad Codex, and often in old Spanish manuscripts as well, the order or Ketuvim is as follows: Chronicles, Psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ruth, Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations of Jeremiah, Esther, Daniel, Ezra."

I'm still trying with little sucess to find history on the development of the Jewish cycle of Tanakh readings.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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