Codex Sinaiticus electronic text

Page 1 of 1 (20 items)
This post has 19 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 33
Peter Gurry | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Oct 25 2012 8:48 AM

The Codex Sinaiticus has recently released an electronic version of the text of Codex Sinaiticus.

What are the chances that this could be made into an electronic resource for Logos?

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 10:30 AM

I've actually known about this text for awhile. I have inquired a few times to the British Library but have had no response. The kicker is this:

"The data is made available under a Creative Commons licence: it may not be used for commercial purposes, attribution must be made to the original creators (the Codex Sinaiticus Project, www.codexsinaiticus.org), and any derivatives must also be made freely available under the same terms as this original data."

The purpose of my inquiry is to confirm that Logos, which is a commercial company, could create and give away (free download) a resource representing this data. I've inquired a few times over the past six months, but have received no response as yet. Your inquiry reminds me I need to inquire again (just did that).

If/when there is a response, I'll be sure to update this thread with the results.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 10:37 AM

Rick Brannan (Logos):
If/when there is a response, I'll be sure to update this thread with the results.
Yes

Posts 33
Peter Gurry | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 10:40 AM

I wondered about that too, Rick. To me it sounds like you just can't sell the text, not that a commercial business can't give it away. But I see where you would want to be sure.

Thanks for keeping track of this!

Posts 1874
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 11:20 AM

Rick

I do hope that you will soon get a positive response. I'm probably "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" but it might be worth pointing out to British Library that Logos has already done something similar with the Perseus resources.

Sinaiticus is a marvellous document. I go and check it out every time I'm down in London. It's worth looking at – even under glass!

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 4GHz; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.12.2; 1TB FD; Logos 7

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.12.2; 256GB SSD; Logos 7

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 10.2

iPhone 5s 32GB iOS 10.2

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 11:37 AM

Alan Macgregor:

Rick

I do hope that you will soon get a positive response. I'm probably "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" but it might be worth pointing out to British Library that Logos has already done something similar with the Perseus resources.

Sinaiticus is a marvellous document. I go and check it out every time I'm down in London. It's worth looking at – even under glass!

Every blessing

Alan

I think it would be most valuable if it were to be a facsimile edition rather than a transcription.  I have several resources which tell me what it says.  I would rather see it myself.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1874
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 11:52 AM

George Somsel:
I think it would be most valuable if it were to be a facsimile edition rather than a transcription.

George

You're absolutely right! That's why I like to go and take a look whenever I venture down to London from Buckie on the Moray Coast, where I live. The trouble is that I've got to look at the original at the page that is currently open.

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 4GHz; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.12.2; 1TB FD; Logos 7

MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.12.2; 256GB SSD; Logos 7

iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 10.2

iPhone 5s 32GB iOS 10.2

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 1:43 PM

Alan Macgregor:
it might be worth pointing out to British Library that Logos has already done something similar with the Perseus resources

Yes, and the message(s) I've sent to date have brought that up. Perseus' license is less restrictive than even the CC license attached to Sinaiticus, though.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 1:45 PM

George Somsel:
I think it would be most valuable if it were to be a facsimile edition rather than a transcription.

There is a tremendous amount of metadata about the manuscript within the files from the British Library (folio, quire, corrector data, pages, columns, word breaks, etc.) I don't know that we'll encode all of that data into a Logos version should we receive the go-ahead to do it, at least in a first cut, but it's there for future reference and development.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 2:44 PM

Rick Brannan (Logos):

George Somsel:
I think it would be most valuable if it were to be a facsimile edition rather than a transcription.

There is a tremendous amount of metadata about the manuscript within the files from the British Library (folio, quire, corrector data, pages, columns, word breaks, etc.) I don't know that we'll encode all of that data into a Logos version should we receive the go-ahead to do it, at least in a first cut, but it's there for future reference and development.

I am less interested in the metadata than I am in the actual letters themselves—how are they formed, etc, what about the corrector's entries?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 2:49 PM

Hi George.

George Somsel:
what about the corrector's entries?

The view you see on the Sinaiticus web site (http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx), upper right corner -- I'm fairly sure it is driven by the same files. So the sort of data that allows that display, including corrector notation and correction, is available.

Full high-quality images are available on the web site, so — given internet access — one can check out the letters pretty easily.

 

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 2:53 PM

Rick Brannan (Logos):

Hi George.

George Somsel:
what about the corrector's entries?

The view you see on the Sinaiticus web site (http://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx), upper right corner -- I'm fairly sure it is driven by the same files. So the sort of data that allows that display, including corrector notation and correction, is available.

Full high-quality images are available on the web site, so — given internet access — one can check out the letters pretty easily.

 

Yes, I am aware of that.  The question is "Would these same features be available in a Logos edition (should it ever be effected)?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 3:08 PM

George Somsel:
The question is "Would these same features be available in a Logos edition (should it ever be effected)?

The corrector data: Yes

The other metadata regarding page/column display, etc.: probably not, at least not initially.

The primary goal of getting this data into Logos would be for simple reference, and for allowing comparisons between other Greek NTs and Sinaiticus. The line breaks/etc. present some problems for efficient comparison.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 33
Peter Gurry | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2012 4:35 PM

Not to mention the ease of comparison within Sinaiticus itself. Could it also be grammatically tagged, Rick? I would think there would be some interesting searches that could be done across the whole manuscript as well.

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 11:55 AM

Hi Peter.

Peter Gurry:

Not to mention the ease of comparison within Sinaiticus itself. Could it also be grammatically tagged, Rick? I would think there would be some interesting searches that could be done across the whole manuscript as well.

There would be some issues with that, primarily the stipulation that we would have to license any derivatives with the same license and make the material available. That, and it would involve a significant investment to tag the text. After all, it is the LXX (mostly), plus NT, plus Hermas (mostly) and Barnabas.

I won't say 'never', but I can say that the initial release would not be tagged — if we're ever able to do it.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 33
Peter Gurry | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 12:00 PM

I see. But it would still be searchable, right?

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 12:04 PM

Peter Gurry:

I see. But it would still be searchable, right?

Of course. Fully searchable by text; but no morph/lemma/etc.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 12:06 PM

Rick Brannan (Logos):

George Somsel:
The question is "Would these same features be available in a Logos edition (should it ever be effected)?

The corrector data: Yes

The other metadata regarding page/column display, etc.: probably not, at least not initially.

The primary goal of getting this data into Logos would be for simple reference, and for allowing comparisons between other Greek NTs and Sinaiticus. The line breaks/etc. present some problems for efficient comparison.

You still haven't answered my question.  Perhaps you don't want to answer?  Hmm

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1313
LogosEmployee
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 12:21 PM

George Somsel:
You still haven't answered my question.  Perhaps you don't want to answer?  Hmm

Maybe you can explicitly tell me what "these same features" are. As to the manuscript images themselves, those are not part of the transcription. So only the data represented by the XML transcription could possibly be made available.

If we're ever able to use that data (still waiting for the BL, remember), then the first implementation will likely be focused on something that is easily comparable to other LXX/NT editions in Logos — so that means no folio/quire/page/column/line breaks in the display, but a display more like a versified Bible. The XML metadata does specify paragraph breaks, so that is probably what would be used to segment the text above the verse level (but lower than the chapter level). For instance, Mk 1.40-44 is a paragraph, like this (note use of the lunate sigma):

40 και ερχεται προϲ αυτον λεπροϲ παρακαλων αυτον και γονυπετων λεγων αυτω οτι εαν θεληϲ δυναϲε με καθαριϲαι 41 και ϲπλαγχνιϲθειϲ εκτιναϲ την χειρα αυτου ηψατο κ(αι) λεγει θελω καθαριϲθητι 42 και ευθυϲ απηλθεν απ αυτου η λεπρα και εκαθαριϲθη 43 και εμβριμηϲαμενοϲ αυτω ευθυϲ εξεβαλε αυτον 44 και λεγει αυτω ορα μηδενι ειπηϲ αλλα ϋπαγε ϲαυτον διξο τω ιερει και προϲενεγκε περι του καθαριϲμου ϲου α προϲεταξεν μωυϲηϲ ειϲ μαρτυριο αυτοιϲ

Does that help?

 

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2012 12:45 PM

Rick Brannan (Logos):

George Somsel:
You still haven't answered my question.  Perhaps you don't want to answer?  Hmm

Maybe you can explicitly tell me what "these same features" are. As to the manuscript images themselves, those are not part of the transcription. So only the data represented by the XML transcription could possibly be made available.

If we're ever able to use that data (still waiting for the BL, remember), then the first implementation will likely be focused on something that is easily comparable to other LXX/NT editions in Logos — so that means no folio/quire/page/column/line breaks in the display, but a display more like a versified Bible. The XML metadata does specify paragraph breaks, so that is probably what would be used to segment the text above the verse level (but lower than the chapter level). For instance, Mk 1.40-44 is a paragraph, like this (note use of the lunate sigma):

40 και ερχεται προϲ αυτον λεπροϲ παρακαλων αυτον και γονυπετων λεγων αυτω οτι εαν θεληϲ δυναϲε με καθαριϲαι 41 και ϲπλαγχνιϲθειϲ εκτιναϲ την χειρα αυτου ηψατο κ(αι) λεγει θελω καθαριϲθητι 42 και ευθυϲ απηλθεν απ αυτου η λεπρα και εκαθαριϲθη 43 και εμβριμηϲαμενοϲ αυτω ευθυϲ εξεβαλε αυτον 44 και λεγει αυτω ορα μηδενι ειπηϲ αλλα ϋπαγε ϲαυτον διξο τω ιερει και προϲενεγκε περι του καθαριϲμου ϲου α προϲεταξεν μωυϲηϲ ειϲ μαρτυριο αυτοιϲ

Does that help?

 

Apparently there is no intention to make this equivalent to actually viewing the ms itself.  In that case, I don't see that this would be of any particular value to me since I already have resources detailing virtually every reading of א.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Page 1 of 1 (20 items) | RSS