Logos 5 Upgrade

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This post has 161 Replies | 13 Followers

Posts 2277
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 2:00 PM

Adam Blevins:
Thank you so much Andy for your response.

It's a pleasure Big Smile Feel free to post if you have any question or need any assistance whatsoever. There are many knowledgeable users on the forum who will be glad to help.

Adam Blevins:
I'm not disappointed in the L4 software by the way. It is the best Bible software that I have used, and I congratulate the Logos team for all of their hard work.

Yes

 

Posts 2
Reinhardt Haukenfrers | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:27 PM

I agree. The electronic resources have already been purchased. I feel a bit like I was only renting them now. I guess the library rents for $1,000 a year. It would be as if apple upgraded iTunes and made you buy all your music over again. $100 bucks for a software upgrade - no problemo. $600 for software because you have an extinsive investment in electronic books??? Questionable. I am wishing now that I had bought the resources from amazon. They don't charge me every time they upgrade the kindle app. Can you imagine if Amazon charged you 20% of all the books you owned every time they updated the kindle app?

It would be one thing too if logos books were really cheap, they are usually more than the print edition and always more than the kindle version, But I was happy to support the company because they are making great bible study software. Now I feel like a bit of a chump - I was support them and they are exploiting me. Workers of the work unite! OK just kidding about that part - but I do feel a bit used - and it feels even worse because I assumed logo was a Christian company not just selling christian products. Go ahead, make a profit, they deserve it. But I assumed with the price we pay for books, you would own them for life not be locked into a system where if you want to stay current you have to for over big bucks to read your books.

Is there a way I can return all my logos books for some type of partial refund?

Oh well - I guess the maxim applies here "Buyer Beware." 

Posts 8596
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 3:34 PM

Reinhardt Haukenfrers:
. The electronic resources have already been purchased. I feel a bit like I was only renting them now. I guess the library rents for $1,000 a year.
No. Not at all. You own the books. The software that reads them is free and the engine for L5 will be a free download. Bob Pritchett explained the future engine download here.

 

Reinhardt Haukenfrers:
But I assumed with the price we pay for books, you would own them for life not be locked into a system where if you want to stay current you have to for over big bucks to read your books.
You DO own the books for life. The software will be downloadable for free after the intro period. This has been said many times.

EDIT: 

Also see:

Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

"The software upgrade itself will be free, it's just not released on its own yet." -- Bob Pritchett

 

 

 

Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It

Check the Wiki

Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 4:49 PM

Reinhardt Haukenfrers:

But I was happy to support the company because they are making great bible study software. Now I feel like a bit of a chump - I was support them and they are exploiting me. Workers of the work unite! OK just kidding about that part - but I do feel a bit used - and it feels even worse because I assumed logo was a Christian company not just selling christian products. Go ahead, make a profit, they deserve it. But I assumed with the price we pay for books, you would own them for life not be locked into a system where if you want to stay current you have to for over big bucks to read your books.

Is there a way I can return all my logos books for some type of partial refund?

Oh well - I guess the maxim applies here "Buyer Beware." 

Peace, Reinhardt, and always Joy in the Lord!                 I am a volunteer on these Forums, having owned Logos Resources for about 19 years.  Reinhardt, I don't have the slightest clue as to what you are talking about.          Of course you can get a refund!  Logos always very properly refunds.  Logos is a truly honourable company, and I don't understand why you are running this company down.  I now own about 6,000 books and I trust Logos as I use the Logos Bible Software daily for powerful Bible study and scholarly research.

              I notice this is your first post.  I really would like to relate to you in a positive way; so please talk to us about your needs and aspirations. 

Logos 5 is the very best of all Logos programs up to now and I am so tremedously excited by it!              Kindest personal greetings!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 5:27 PM

I repeat: The upgrade selector "does not work correctly" . You cannot trust it, it does not work correctly.

Each time I try and use it:

A) I get a different price to upgrade to the same package.

B) The books listed are the the same ones I have.

C) When I click "new to me" it shows there are three books that are new.

D) 400.00 to 550.00 ( depending on when I try it ) for three books is pretty steep and for books I have absolutely no use for .

The point is simp[ly that the up[grade calculator is not working correctly and you have no way of knowing what you are or are not getting and if the price is correct.

Worries me that a software company cannot get sales software to work correctly.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 5:32 PM

Update: This is "sorta" funny. Each time I go through the process, it gets , wait for it,,,,,cheaper!

If I had time to do this a couple times an hour for a couple of days- Logos would owe me for the software!-smile

Just needs to be fixed -in case anyone at Logos actually reads this.

Posts 13
Hanson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:59 PM

Normal 0 false false false EN-US JA X-NONE

The purpose of posting this is to serve as food for thought and yes I will be contacting Logos directly.

I am extremely disappointed and angry with Logos at this moment. I feel as if I have been mislead and stolen from by the company and the update to Logos 5. Let me explain the situation. I have been an avid Logos user for almost two years now running Scholars Library Gold since the beginning and have also added new resources. It is also important to understand that I do not need any new resources and I only add them when required for school. Therefore the “new added recourse for less” sales pitch is meaningless to me, but features that make tasks easier or aid in learning are very important to me. When I saw the release of Logos 5 and its new features I was very excited. In addition I read reports of Mac users experiencing performance boosts, which only added to my excitement, as I have been patiently waiting for these performance enhancements.

However, when I saw I would have to pay something like $500 to upgrade to Logos 5 Gold, which I already had and contained no new usable resources, I refused to waste that amount of money. I elected instead to save as much money as possible and upgraded to Logos 5 Starter for $50. I thought when I made this decision I would be able to enjoy all the features of Logos 5. I now know I will not be enjoying any new features advertised. Yes, admittedly I should have looked at the fine print comparing the new features but Logos should not advertise their new features in a way that makes one believe they apply to all the packages. It was my understanding that Logos 5 was an engine upgrade, which applied to every package across the board as opposed to a resource upgrade which is different for every package.

If this was not bad enough Logos wants me to pay the prorated price of $450 to have the Gold package which will include some new resources (none that I need or necessarily want) and the new features I thought I was buying with the “Starter” package.

I’m sure some will think that I am making a big deal over $50 but how I manage money is extremely important to me and I cannot help but feel wronged by this. I have no problem paying for upgrades as long as I get what I am paying for and in this case I have not. I hope my situation is unique and not the normal for everyone else. I truly appreciate what Logos has done with this software and the impact that it is having for the kingdom of God. I want to see the company grow, prosper and make a profit off the product they provide. However, I hope that in the future the company will communicate more clearly regarding their products especially when it comes to upgrades such as this one which seems to be quit confusing.

Hanson M.

Posts 2277
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 11:10 PM

Hi Hanson,

I appreciate that this, and other threads addressing the same concern, have become long and unwieldy.

The first thing to add is that other users have expressed similar sentiments.

The second thing is, in fact, good news. Logos have responded to this concern and have announced that, in the coming weeks, a minimal crossgrade and the free engine will be made available. If I understand the initial statements by Logos, the minimal crossgrade will cost more that the price you have been quoted for the Starter package, but less (perhaps even significantly less) than the price you have been quoted to upgrade to L5 Gold. The minimal crossgrade will include most (if not all) of functionality of L5, but with minimal additional resources.

The free engine will be free Big Smile The free engine will not include much (if any) of the new functionality introduced with L5.

Mr Bob Pritchett (the CEO of Logos) has commented further, here,

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

I also wanted to clarify that you are neither obliged nor compelled to upgrade to L5. L4 will continue to work. Moreover, L4 is still supported and I understand that future service releases are planned (as has been the case since its release). 

Finally, a further option would be to email or telephone sales. They may not have details with regards to the minimal crossgrade at present (as the details are still being finalised), but they will be able to talk you through the options available as per today.

Blessings in your decision Big Smile

 

Posts 25192
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 11:10 PM

May I ask what it would have cost to wait and do a cross-grade? I've not been watching the pricing on it - if it's even been announced. I've been a Logos user through more versions than I care to admit and always felt I'd been warned that not all functions were available without cost. Unfortunately, it is clear from many posts in the forums, that message somehow has been lost. I wish I knew why.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9277
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 11:26 PM

Hanson:
I do not need any new resources and I only add them when required for school. Therefore the “new added recourse for less” sales pitch is meaningless to me, but features that make tasks easier or aid in learning are very important to me.

Fair enough. 

Hanson:
when I saw I would have to pay something like $500 to upgrade to Logos 5 Gold, which I already had and contained no new usable resources, I refused to waste that amount of money. I elected instead to save as much money as possible

According to your stated objectives, the right way to go.

Hanson:
upgraded to Logos 5 Starter for $50. (...) Yes, admittedly I should have looked at the fine print comparing the new features

Yes. 

Hanson:
Logos should not advertise their new features in a way that makes one believe they apply to all the packages.

Actually they don't do and they tell everywhere that starter hasn't the complete set of databases necessary for running all of the new features, such as Bible Sense.

As I read your situation, the Minimal Crossgrade would be the right thing for you to go for - this option will be available in a few weeks time, as far as we can see.

Hanson:
I’m sure some will think that I am making a big deal over $50

No, what leaves me wondering is your emotional reaction:

Hanson:
I am extremely disappointed and angry with Logos at this moment. I feel as if I have been mislead and stolen from by the company .... I cannot help but feel wronged by this  

As I see it, you made a small mistake by buying something that wasn't what you were wishing to have. Everybody has sometimes - especially when it's on the web and we get excited over a shiny new thing that looks really cool. You say yourself should have been a bit more careful - but hey, this is Logos.com, not eBay!

Logos gives a 30 days satisfaction guarantee, so you can contact Customer Support, explain the issue and get back the $50, go back to L4 and wait a bit - or maybe they can work out something where you upgrade from Starter to Crossgrade for a nominal fee when it becomes available.  

I'm very confident that Logos will be able to sort this out for you.

Running Verbum 7 and Logos 8 latest (beta) version on Win 10

Posts 1
Daniel LAU | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:37 AM

Mike,

How? thanks

Posts 13
Hanson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 12:41 AM

Thing is I didn't pick up on the difference between packages as it relates to the features until after I spent a couple hours (literally) on the website trying to figure out why I didn't have time line and other features which were being advertised. It's just extremely frustrating. I think it needs to plainly stated that not all the packages share the same features. In a way it seems like a down grade.  Although I did not lose any resources or features I am essentially the owner of a 1500$ starter package. But I will be calling Customer Support tomorrow.

Hanson M.

Posts 20570
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 1:01 AM

Hi Daniel - and welcome to the forums

Daniel LAU:

Mike,

How? thanks

Sorry. What question are you asking Mike?

How can we help?

Graham 

 

Posts 230
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 2:32 AM

It's a botched marketing/PR job is the cause of this mess.  

Forum volunteers shouldn't have to endlessly repeat Pritchett's explanatory posts.  Pritchett's posts should have been repeated on the Logos 5 announcement page.  

To call all the new things in Logos "features" is misleading.  Some needed to be differentiated as "resources."  Those "features" need to be re-presented as resources.  "Clause Search" sounds like an engine feature but in fact Logos considers them resources.  As you can see the confusion leaves customers feeling betrayed because the promotional material makes them think they would get it with the new Logos 5 engine. 

The Package Naming system has also been a source of confusion. Adding a Modifier might have helped.  I have Scholars KF.  That made me realise that not all Scholar packages are the same.  The new calculator, though a good idea, unfortunately the package naming issue obscured its value.  

A timetable for the release of the minimal cross-grade and free engine upgrade releases would have been nice.  However that might reduce the numbers purchasing package upgrades.  Logos will have to weigh off that against the ill-will generated by this remarkable version release.  

Posts 2
Augustine Cyril Chow | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:12 AM

Good summary of the problem.

If they can just quote a software upgrade version without additional contents, this will satisfy us.  The problem is their customized upgrade did not consider the additional books already purchased in the extended package.  they are forcing to pay for the books/ contents we already paid again.

 

 

Augustine Chow

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:14 AM

Hanson:

 ... I feel as if I have been mislead and stolen from by the company and the update to Logos 5. 

 ... Yes, admittedly I should have looked at the fine print comparing the new features 

... how I manage money is extremely important to me and I cannot help but feel wronged by this. I have no problem paying for upgrades as long as I get what I am paying for and in this case I have not. 

 

Hanson, once again, I don't really get it. Ok, YOU made a small mistake. As has been highlighted, Logos is gracious, and you can return the product and get a refund. No questions. No problem. No need to get so emotionally involved.

Are we looking at the same website???? The listing of datasets and features isn't exactly in "fine print", as you claim... such a statement is very misleading and not very honest. Every resource, every dataset and every feature is clearly listed for every package, displayed graphically so that you can clearly see the differences and what you are getting or not getting. Throughout the website, it is stated that not all features are included with all packages (I for one never got the impression from what I read that every feature was included at every package level. Quite the contrary). What do you realistically want Logos to do? Alot of the problem seems that people these days won't take the time to read anything, we are so used to getting our information spoon fed to us in sound bites or images (I'm not trying to say that is true in your case, Hanson). but this isn't the kind of thing that you can just scan through quickly. It does take some study.

I don't want to sound unkind, but you claim that you're upset because "how you manage money is important to you". With apologies, I suggest that if it WAS as you say, you would have researched more carefully what you were purchasing, whether your purchase was $50 or $500.  Frankly, yes, there was some confusion in the roll out, but I think it comes from the naming of the packages, and our assumptions about what that means. Once we accept what Logos has said (that these are apples versus oranges... and all packages are basically independent of what you currently own, and that all of them are "upgrades"), it becomes clearer. There was also some confusion about the "new to you" feature, which indicates that you don't have a set if you don't have ALL of the set now available... but that what you DO have of the sets is taken into consideration in your pricing. But these don't seem to have been the issue (or were only partly so) in your case.

Yes, there is a lot of information in those lists of resources, features and datasets, and in the comparison information, and it takes time to go through it all. I know MVPS and long term users who beta tested L5 and are still researching what would be the best approach for them personally. If it's taking them some time to make the correct choice for them, it makes sense that it would for us as well. For that, my genuine sympathies. But not because the information isn't there. The information is there and readily available, and not in fine print. And it's been provided there for us for a reason... so that you and I can make the correct and informed decision about our specific needs and circumstances.

So YOU made a small mistake. Ok. It's easily fixable now that you know more. Relax. But please don't blast the company, claim that you have been "wronged", that you haven't gotten what you paid for (when you did), or that you were "mislead" or "stolen from". Do you realize the import of what you are saying? The slander involved? The impact upon others and upon the company? Please be fair in addressing your concerns. I know Logos will be fair (and then some) in addressing yours.

Posts 23711
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:17 AM

Tony Kan:
To call all the new things in Logos "features" is misleading.  Some needed to be differentiated as "resources."

There has been some speculation over terms like feature, book, resources and data sets and the terms have been used somewhat interchangeably e.g. Resources = Books + Data Sets is reasonable, whilst Features = Books or Features = Resources is misleading. New "things" ("New to 5") = Features is understandable if you focus on the additional capabilities of the software (some would say "Addins"), some of which are enabled by Data Sets and/or books**. For example:-

  • Topic Guide is a new feature enabled by additions to the Logos Controlled Vocabulary (LCV) Database from L4 (which confusingly isn't listed as a Data Set)
  • Clause Search is a new feature enabled by the Clause Search Data Set
  • BWS Phrase Search is an addition to BWS enabled by the Phrase Concordance Data Set.
  • Bible Facts is a new feature enabled by L4 People/Places/Things data sets  + "new" Events data set  (People isn't listed in Data Sets!?)

But "new to 5" also encompasses books not included in previous base packages.

Tony Kan:
As you can see the confusion leaves customers feeling betrayed because the promotional material makes them think they would get it with the new Logos 5 engine.

People are upset about having to pay for additional books to get the above features, and the way that the packages are named; not being related to their previous package with the same name and thereby 'devaluing' those packages by having to purchase a "lower" package.

There is much that could have been done better in promoting the packages, clarifying the Crossgrade and the expected "Free" engine, and presenting the Upgrade features on the web page, but let's move past all this and make meaningful decisions based on what is now known.

 

**  this isn't as clear as it could be from the web page, but that's usually the case when marketing dominates the presentation. I have the advantage of being a beta tester.

 

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 190
EmileB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 4:33 AM

Augustine Cyril Chow:

The problem is their customized upgrade did not consider the additional books already purchased in the extended package.  they are forcing to pay for the books/ contents we already paid again.

 

Augustine, this is absolutely 100% not true. With the dynamic pricing engine you are receiving credit for every single title or volume that you have purchased. Even when there is a set, and the "New to You" features shows that you don't own it, when it seems like you already do, it is merely indicating that there is something in the set that had been upgraded/added from what you already own (for example, I the NAC and the College Press NIV commentary series, etc... but it shows I don't ... that is because they have additional volumes, and THE VOLUMES I ALREADY HAVE HAVE BEEN TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IN MY PERSONAL UPGRADE PRICE). You are only paying for the resources that you don't already own. You do not now, and never will, pay for a volume you already purchased. You are NOT repaying for ANY content.

You have to get past the names of the packages... practically speaking in terms of "upgrading", there is no connection between the new names and the names of what was in L4. You have L4 Portfolio? L5 Starter is an upgrade for you. So is L5 Gold. So is L5 Portfolio. Yes, these new packages may (or may not) have resources from your existing package. That doesn't mean that they are the same package. They are totally new birds. And you can go with L% NOTHING if that is good for you. Just wait for the free engine (by the way, Phil has indicated a ROUGH estimate of pricing... there's going to be more than one "minimal crossgrade option" at different price points... again, so people don't have to pay for anything that they don't want... and he  has given us a ROUGH idea... no guarantees... of what they are thinking in terms of time frame... one to two weeks...)

And if you decide to go with L5 Starter, you haven't been "demoted" or devalued or degraded. You are still an L4 Whatever... PLUS an L5 Starter. Logos is not a frequent flyer club with prestige memberships. I think that is where people are getting so hung up.

 

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 5:03 AM

Dear EmileB : You are quite mistaken and the forums are full of people stating you are mistaken, Bob Pritchard has stated they made a mistake and things were/are not clear and they are trying to fix it.

The upgrade calculator is still having issues ( though seems to be getting better ) and it is still quite unclear to a first reader that "you get very little" in new features by upgrading .

I have a lot of money tied up in Logos and it does not work well, has never worked as advertised (mac install) and for 500.00 more I might get what I first paid for a couple of years ago, yet without all the advertised features.

it was "only" through the forums that I became aware that there were "data sets" that were different to each package . It was "only" after reading the forums that I went back and found that situation at the very bottom of the page in the advertised packages .

Now I know it's there and to look for it, most people will not, it is quite strategically located to be overlooked.

We are not stupid people, it's just when you buy a luxury car, you don't expect the tires to be an extra add-on you have to spend more on, thats all anyone is saying.

It's not explained on the sales site that some features are "data sets" and that some them only work if you buy certain resources that are only available in certain very expensive packages. 

Our country is still in a financial crises, unemployment still very high in many areas and it's therefor hard for many/most Pastors/Clergy/Lay to justify some of these type of spending decisions.

It is made worse over all by confusing advertising and packages.

There is no crossgrade or engine at this time in order to "try" and make as ,many as possible spend the big bucks and the withholding of features is designed to do the same things, the economy affects Logos as well as us and they are trying to get as much money in hand as they can on a product launch-it's business.

But at the same time, they have indeed made it very confusing for most people.

FWIW.

Posts 74
Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 7 2012 5:04 AM

Nothing like blaming the victim. Always a good approach for charlatans.

Rich+

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