Catholic Library = Verbum

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Posts 192
LogosEmployee
Mike Estes - Logos | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:27 AM

Steve:

Does NABRE needed to added again if I have it already in logos 4?

No, if you already own it you don't need to add it again.  All books you owned before the upgrade will be there after the upgrade as well.

Posts 41
Frank Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 10:36 AM

Steve:

Does NABRE needed to added again if I have it already in logos 4?

Not according to my experience (Logos 4 Catholic Scholar had NABRE, and it is in Logos 5 Verbum Capstone; on Mac).

Posts 26850
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 12:07 PM

Frank, if you previously owned NABRE whether in a package or purchased separately you should still own it. If it is no longer in your resources contact customer support. My copy came across just fine.

The quickest way to check is to type Open NABRE in the command box at the top of your Logos app.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 41
Frank Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 6 2012 12:22 PM

M.J.--it is still there.  NABRE was with me in Logos 4, and still with me in Logos 5.  No problems.

Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 4:51 PM

fgh:

Don't miss to get an extra 15% off by using the coupon code at http://www.facebook.com/logosforcatholics/posts/513231032020773! I only just found it, or I would have posted it earlier. 

Even better call and talk to the Verbum sales person (usually David). You'll get an even better discount than 15% :) It's worth it even if you're overseas.

And if you can afford it, it is also a great time to add some of the resources that are not in the package you're upgrading to but that you want. For example the Talmud and the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary are available at almost 50% discount.

For other resources at great discounts, check the regular Logos (not Verbum) package upgrade page and press on customize, you'll see some products that can be added at great discounts. Add those to your order while on the phone. I wish this 'customize' option was easily available on the Verbum page so Catholics don't miss out.

(note: I might have sounded like one but no I'm not a Logos sales employee)

Posts 192
LogosEmployee
Mike Estes - Logos | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 8 2012 9:34 PM

I mentioned this elsewhere, but thought this would be a good thread to mention the Verbum Catholic packages parts here.

While there isn't an upgrades page yet for the Verbum Catholic Packages nor a comparison page that shows what parts of the Verbum package you already own, the discount calculator has been working since the very first day the new Verbum packages have been released.

While it's not as easy to find due to the upgrades page not being there, you can find your discounted price by signing in.

Going to the compare on the Verbum packages page:
http://www.logos.com/catholic#compare

And clicking on the Verbum base package you are interested in, for example Verbum Master:
http://www.logos.com/product/27994/verbum-master

On it you will see your discounted price for that product something like this:


For that example, with my personal account I own Catholic Scholars plus several additional books. It shows that I get a 71% discount based on the resources I have in my Catholic Scholars bundle and the resources I've since purchased. Bringing the price from $1,349.95 retail down to $386.55. And this isn't even with the additional 15% off Logos5Verbum coupon. The coupon brings it down further to a total cost of $328.57, that's around 76% off the total price.

If you are finding a discrepancy in what you are seeing I would certainly appreciate your help in finding any issues in the discount calculator price being wrong.  Please send me a screenshot of the pricing on the Verbum product page for your logged in account.  We most certainly don't want people paying again for resources that they already own.

Thank you,
Mike

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 6:26 AM

Mike Estes - Logos:

If you are finding a discrepancy in what you are seeing I would certainly appreciate your help in finding any issues in the discount calculator price being wrong.  Please send me a screenshot of the pricing on the Verbum product page for your logged in account.  We most certainly don't want people paying again for resources that they already own.

Thank you,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your most recent post regarding the discount calculations.  I did notice something that does not appear to be consistent.  Rather than post a bunch of screen shots I'll do my best to describe.

It appears that a person is given a credit (discount) based on their current library of resources.  Along with that, the discount could be adjusted upward based on the new Verbum package they upgrade to...the basic scenario is "the more you buy, the more your discount".  Makes sense.

Here is how I guaged the value of my current library (similar situation as yours - Catholic Scholar's Library w/extra resources added).  The calculation I used is this: 

           Retail Price of New Verbum Library - Discount Price = Value of My Current Library. 

What I expected (and observed) was that the more I bought the more value I got from my current library...not less value.

          Here are the numbers I got off the website:

          Basic                  $289.96 - $6.87 = $283.09 (value of my library)

          Foundations        $489.95 - $15.24 = $474.71 (value of my library)

          Scripture Study    $889.95 - $102.84 = $787.11 (value of my library)

          Master                 $1,349.95 - $371.06 = $978.89 (value of my library)

          Capstone             $2,289.95 - $1,462.85 = $827.10 (value of my library)

Most all of this makes sense...until you see the discounted price for the Verbum Capstone Library.  It appears to be calculating less value for my current library even though I am buying more.  How can that be?

Let me know.

Blessings,

Steve

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 9:34 AM

Steve,

I think there are more variables at play here than you have in your formula. But I'll suggest one possible answer to your question using the data you have.

The "value of credit for your current library" is = "sum of $ of books you already own that are in the upgrade package" X (a credit factor for current owners; let's ignore that for now).

Your existing Scholar's is the base for the new Scripture. Looking at the contents of the packages, it is clear that you own virtually all of Basic and Foundations as well as the large majority of Scripture Study, and so we can expect you would receive a very large credits for based on your current library. Master's has a little less that 25% more items than does Scripture, so we should expect a lower, but still substantial credit. Capstone almost doubles the products that Scripture has, so we would expect to see a large drop in the credit given.

So does Logos offer the credit we expect? Since we don't have Logos's spreadsheet, the best way to determine this is to look at the % ratio of your "credit for the current Library" to  "Retail Value of Upgrade". (Yes, I am making some simplifying assumptions here). Here's are my calcs based on the $ in your post:

Basic 98%

Foundations 97%

Scripture 88%

Master 73%

Capstone 36%

Masters has 122 more items than does Scripture and the value of some of these added are significant (the UBS Handbooks and the PBI NT Commentaries together are worth $1000). So you currently own less of the resources in the upgrade package and the credit for prior ownership falls to 73%. That seems reasonable.

Capstone adds to Scripture approximately 4 times the number of products that Masters does. Does the 36% credit for current ownership seem reasonable? Here's a very rough estimate: 4 X (the Masters credit - Scripture credit) = 4 X 15% = 60%. Scripture credit was 88% - 60%= 28% estimate for Capstone. So the 36% credit for the books you own currently also seems "reasonable."

Hope this helps.

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 10:48 AM

Dennis Parish:

Steve,

I think there are more variables at play here than you have in your formula. But I'll suggest one possible answer to your question using the data you have.

 

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your reply.  I understand that we don't have the "inner workings" of the discount calculator used by Logos, but I don't think it's really needed to come to basic understanding.  I do have some of those more expensive add on resources that you mention in your post.  I know that they are not part of all new library options and that I would not expect to have credit for those.  Got that.  Let me say it in different words:

- I would expect to pay more for more resources.

- I would expect that the more resources I had that were avaiable in a given library package the more "credit" I would recieve.

- Combining the first two points, I would expect the percentage of credit to go down as I increase the amount of new resources (more Logos resources, the same My resources - ratio changes).  This is what your calculation is addressing.

- What I would not expect, and what appears to be occuring, is that the "credit" for My resources went down from $978.89 to $827.10 when I went from Master to Capstone.

This last item should not happen.  My Library has no less resources when I select either of the new Verbum Base Libraries that I mention - and the Capstone Library has no less resources than the Master Library going upward.  At a minimum, it should be the same "credit" - $978.89 (The percentage of "credit " would still go down as your calculation reveals.)

Sure, absolutely and without hesitation - I should pay more when I move from Master to Capstone, but I should not recieve less for what I already own in doing so.

The calculation you present is correct in determining the percentage of discount.  There is nothing unexpected in it or to fault with it.  However, it does not zero in on the real point of the concern that I have.  It does not contain the input parameters that give you insight into what "credit" (in dollars) that you recieve.  The calculation I provided does that.

Blessings,

Steve

Posts 117
Dennis Parish | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 11:03 AM

Just saying: Doesn't your discount go down if you raise the resource value to $979? That is why I think the other variables are at play. I suspect what you call the library resource value really isn't, but is something else.

I still think the attention should be on what we actually know, the retail upgrade price and the custom discount. 

All the best.

Posts 74
Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 1:02 PM
No. If you already have it, you will keep it. I had NABRE in L4 and I have it now in Verbum.

Rich+

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 2:22 PM

Dennis Parish:

I suspect what you call the library resource value really isn't, but is something else.

I still think the attention should be on what we actually know, the retail upgrade price and the custom discount. 

All the best.

 

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for being patient with me.  I promise to let you have the last word.

It really is the "value" of your current library in every respect.  Consider this: the Discount Price is what I must pay to Logos for all the new resources (Bob's policy that no one pays for something twice).  The Full Retial Price is what I must pay to Logos if I were starting from nothing (new user - no resources).  If you subtract the former from the latter you arrive at the dollar value that Logos assigns to my current resources.

In business it is preferable to create the highest customer value when they spend the most money with you.  That is the value proposition and in that scenario you would create a Win-Win transaction.  Best value for the customer, most dollars coming into the business.  (All within the business pricing model including the percentage calculations you refered to previously, of course.)

I might consider potentially upgrading to Verbum Capstone (the best value for Logos) however, the best value for me is if I were to upgrade to Verbum Master.  If I were to move forward (and I have made no decision at this time), it would translates into paying Logos $371.06 versus paying them $1,462,85...bottom line.

The sales department, being the courtious and helpful staff that they are, would not want to force me to buy the more expensive upgrade, but I'm sure they would truly appreciate all the finiancial support they can get.

I just can't see my way clear to getting less value from my current library.

Blessings,

Steve

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Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 3:30 PM

Stephen Kerr:
Most all of this makes sense...until you see the discounted price for the Verbum Capstone Library.  It appears to be calculating less value for my current library even though I am buying more.  How can that be?

In theory, that would be possible. It's probably worth assuming that if we already own half the value of a package, we'll get a 50% discount. If we own a third of the value, we get a 33% discount, and so on. Imagine, too, that you have most of the resources in Master, and almost none of the additional resources that are only available in Capstone.

Let's say Master is worth $5,000 if you bought all the resources separately, and you own $4,000 worth. You'll get an 80% discount = $1,079.96.

Let's say Capstone is worth $15,000 if you bought the resources separately, and you own $4,500 worth. You'll get a 30% discount = $686.99

Now those figures are plucked out the air, and won't be accurate. But they could well indicate the scenario you happen to be in.

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 4:18 PM

Mark Barnes:

Stephen Kerr:
Most all of this makes sense...until you see the discounted price for the Verbum Capstone Library.  It appears to be calculating less value for my current library even though I am buying more.  How can that be?

In theory, that would be possible. It's probably worth assuming ...

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your response.  The thing is that I really don't need to assume.  No "plucking" is necessary.  It's more certain than "that would be possible".  The numbers that I provided are the actual numbers that I see when I am signed in on the website.  The calculations are, in fact, the real math.  Please let me know if I have added/subtracted something incorrectly.

It's entirely possible that Logos wants to credit less dollars for my current library if I want to upgrade to Verbum Capstone versus Verbum Master....but I am having a hard time believing that, given the Incredible Customer Support and Integrity of the Logos Bible Software Company.

You'll have to excuse me for being a little hard headed, but I think there is an error in the website calulations.

Blessings,

Steve

Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 7:17 PM

Stephen Kerr:
Please let me know if I have added/subtracted something incorrectly.

Initially I was intrigued by your conundrum, but now I think I have an explanation. Please allow me to try. I believe the problem lies in your equation:

 

Stephen Kerr:
Retail Price of New Verbum Library - Discount Price = Value of My Current Library.

Your equation is not accurate. Let me explain:

The basic equation should start from this basic formula: Value of New Verbum Library = Sum of Value of all the books in the Verbum Library (note value does not equal retail price).

Let's assume that you only own books that are included in the Verbum packages and no other. Then the equation becomes:

Value of New Verbum Library = Sum of value of all the books in your library + Sum of value of the new books in Verbum.

Now the Retail Price of the Verbum package is discounted from the actual value of the resources by a factor. Let's use VD to represent the Verbum Discount. 

Multiply both sides of the equation by the discount factor you arrive at:

VD x Value of Verbum Library = (VD x Value of Your Books) + (VD x Remaining books)

Rearranging: VD x Value of Verbum Library - (VD x Remaining books) = (VD x Value of Your Books)

or in other words Retail Price of New Verbum Package - Discount Price = Discounted Value of Your Books.

Using your numbers, $978.89 is the Value of your library discounted by Master's discount factor, and $827.10 is the Value of your library discounted by Capstone's discount factor. This makes perfect sense since it is reasonable to assume that Captson'e discount is bigger.

Also, are you sure you don't own something that even Capstone does not include? I know I own several. If you do then even then you can't apply any equation to calculate the value of your library since the discount applied to books you own that are in the Verbum package is going to be different from the discount applied to books not in the package.

 

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 9 2012 7:41 PM

Steve,

I'm not disputing your math, but your logic. What you and I don't know is how the value of our existing resources is calculated. The figures I gave illustrate a logic which could produce math which is identical to your calculations. The real question is 'How is the value of my library calculated?'. I've provided a possible answer which is consistent with the figures you've calculated. I think the difference between us is that you're assuming an absolute value to your discount, whereas I'm assuming a relative value.

Mark

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2012 10:43 PM

Stephen Kerr:
Most all of this makes sense...until you see the discounted price for the Verbum Capstone Library.

Thread reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58237/422590.aspx#422590 shows a Verbum Capstone discounted upgrade price of $ 55.24, which was less than Verbum Master upgrade of $ 66.62 so existing library resource licenses influence calculation; when more overlap with library occurs, upgrade costs less.  For comparison, Verbum Scripture Study upgrade was $ 32.51

Personally looking forward to an upgrade page that shows what resources are new.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 11:00 AM

Hi Everyone,

Apologize for not being able to reply yesterday. I was out of pocket all day and am now just signing on to the forum post. Anyway, I truly appreciate averyone's responses to the problem. Slieman, you are clearly thinking about the inputs to the dilema. Mark, the same for you and the others.

I think it is helpful to say the Discount Percent and Value of Current Library are two distinct numbers. Discount Percent and Discount Price are also two distinct numbers.  They are both useful, but not the same. Caution must be exercised when mixing them together because in some cases results my appear to corralate, but not always. As one response clealy and accurately states, the larger the base package, the less Discount Percent you receive. This is true because the contents of My Current Library is a CONSTANT.  Discount Percent and Discount Price are VARIABLES.

Sleiman, I would like to zero in on your completed formula and conclusion (I can't figure out how to seperate the quotes so I'm doing it mannually.  Two spereate quotes below.):

     "...or in other words Retail Price of New Verbum Package - Discount Price = Discounted Value of Your Books."

Correct.  Slightly different words for Value of My Current Library that I use in my formula but you have the correct calculation.  I recogognoze that it is discounted so I am OK with the term you use.  (I'm not exactly following everything in the refinement of your intermediate formula's, but I accept the final form.)

     "Using your numbers, $978.89 is the Value of your library discounted by Master's discount factor, and $827.10 is the Value of your library discounted by Capstone's discount factor. This makes perfect sense since it is reasonable to assume that Captson'e discount is bigger."

The first sentance is correct - it restates my observation above.  I am getting less for My Current Library if I purchase Capstone than I get for My Current Library if I purchase Master.  (I'm confused about the introduction of the new terms "Master's discount factor" and Capstone's discount factor".  I don't see them defined as seperate things in your intermediate formula's.  You may be alluding to the comparison of the contents of My Current Libaray with Master and Capstone and attempting to apply some discount variable to them, but it's not clear to me what those terms mean and how they are different.  No matter.)

The second sentance is not correct.  You are mixing Discount Price and Discount Percent and applying them to Value of My Current Library.  They are not interchangable.  Discount Price is the price I pay (bigger going up from Master to Capstone) versus Discount Percent which is the percentage off the retail price (smaller going up from Master to Capstone). 

Let me approach the problem description from a different model that might help us understand it visually.  Let's use the concept of a SET.  (I don't know how to draw a Venn Diagram here in the post so I will use words as best I can to describe the scanario.  You may benefit from a scratch piece paper and pencil to draw some things out.)

Verbum Master is a SET.  It's contents are all the resources in it's library.  Let's call in VM.

Verbum Capstone is also a SET.  It's contents are all the resources in it's library.  Let's call in VC.

My Current Library is a SET. It's contents are all the resources in my library.  Let's call in MCL

The relationship between VC and VM can be described as this:  VM is a SUBSET of VC.  (VC contains the entire contents of VM.  VC contains some things that are not in VM.)  You could draw this using a circle and puting the letters VM inside and then a larger circle, completely enclosing the VM circle and labeling it VC.)

The relationship between MCL and the first two SETs, VC and VM, can be described as this:  MCL INTERSECTS VC and VM.  This creates a UNION (the content which is shared).  There are some contents of MCL that are not in UNION with VC or VM.  There are some contents of MCL that are in UNION with VC, but not VM.  Everthing in the UNION between MCL and VM is also in UNION with VC (becuase VM is a SUBSET of VC).  You could also describe the relationship between the SETs from the perspective of VC or VM.  I'm not going to do that ad nauseam...hopefully the picture is clearer now.

Here is the bottom line...  You can increase the size (content) of SETs MCL, VC, or VM (some or all), but where they INTERSECT currently (the UNION) can never by less than what is was previously.  The UNION could be more (increase).  If those SETs (some or all) decrease then, yes, the UNION could get smaller.

Now apply a dollar amount to the UNION.  Go back and re-read my original post.

Blessings,

Steve

Posts 13368
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 1:46 PM

Steve,

You haven't interacted with either of my last two posts, which I believe give a possible answer to your question. Can I help to make them clearer for you? (In particular, I think it vital to answer the question "How is the value of my library calculated?" There are multiple ways of making that calculation, and I don't think you'll make sense of what is happening unless you consider all of the ways that Logos could be using.)

Mark

Posts 15805
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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 3:09 PM

Stephen Kerr:

Sleiman, I would like to zero in on your completed formula and conclusion (I can't figure out how to seperate the quotes so I'm doing it mannually.  Two spereate quotes below.):

     "...or in other words Retail Price of New Verbum Package - Discount Price = Discounted Value of Your Books."

Correct. ...

Noticed formula is missing a relative qualifier.  Discount Price is calculated with credit for resources in your library that intersect with resources in the package.  After a Logos 5 Portfolio upgrade, my Logos Library had more resource intersections with Verbum Capstone than Verbum Master so the Capstone upgrade cost was less than Master upgrade.  Thankful for 15 % Verbum discount coupon so an upgrade that added 163 resources averaged a bit less than $ 0.29 per new resource.

Stephen Kerr:

         Here are the numbers I got off the website:

         Basic                  $289.96 - $6.87 = $283.09 (value of my library)

         Foundations       $489.95 - $15.24 = $474.71 (value of my library)

         Scripture Study   $889.95 - $102.84 = $787.11 (value of my library)

         Master                $1,349.95 - $371.06 = $978.89 (value of my library)

         Capstone            $2,289.95 - $1,462.85 = $827.10 (value of my library)

With 15 % Verbum launch promotion discount => http://www.facebook.com/logosforcatholics/posts/513231032020773!

         Basic               $289.96 - $5.84 = $284.12 (credit value in library)

         Foundations      $489.95 - $12.95 = $477.00 (credit value in library)

         Scripture Study $889.95 - $87.41 = $802.54 (credit value in library)

         Master           $1,349.95 - $315.40 = $1,034.55 (credit value in library)

         Capstone       $2,289.95 - $1,234.42 = $1,046.53 (credit value in library)

  Keep Smiling Smile

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