Catholic Library = Verbum

Page 7 of 9 (161 items) « First ... < Previous 5 6 7 8 9 Next >
This post has 160 Replies | 10 Followers

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 3:40 PM

Hi Mark,

Sorry, didn't mean not to respond specifically to your last post.  (Oops! That was a double negative I think...you know what I mean, hopefully.)   I thought I responded to the principles in specific examples in the other posts. 

There are a couple of things to say I think.  First, let's make sure I'm understanding....  Your proposal is based on three parts; 1) the total of the seperate, individually priced retail value of the resources in the new Verbum base packages, 2) the total of the seperate, individually priced retail value of the resources in my original Scholar's library plus the retail value of any additional individual resources I purchased., 3) the division of the second from the first to arrive at Discount Percent and the application of that Discount Percent  to the bundled price of one of the new Verbum packages.  That is how I am understanding your formula.  If it's not correct then you can skip the rest of the post.

If it is as you discribe and how I understand, then the value proposition that I mention previously is observable only from Logos' perspective.  I am unable to calculate what the value proposition is from my perspective (beyond Discount Percent) because I did not purchase seperate, retail priced resources.  Following from that, I am uable to answer the important question.  As I had mentionded before, Discount Percent is not bad just because it is less for Capstone than it is for Master.  There is valid reason for one to be less than another.  Also, discounts are good...I like them.  But this scenario is not satisfying. 

You are most correct on several points:

     - there are multiple ways to make calculations,

     - it is vital to answer the question and,

     - it is making no sense to me.

As it is, I am relagated to try and figure it out on my own based on the data present on the website.  It may be a futile exercise.  That is the situation I have been struggling with since my first post on the subject last week.  I've spent alot of time working through the information...alot.  It is most unsatisfactory and is resulting in "no-sale" for me.  (It has the feeling of a Win-Lose transaction.)

I'm bummed out about the whole thing because I really like Logos...use it daily.

Blessings,

Steve

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 7:00 PM

Stephen Kerr:
As it is, I am relagated to try and figure it out on my own based on the data present on the website. 

Currently Logos has a 15 % additional discount during the Logos 5 Verbum launch, which can be added as a coupon code when an upgrade is in the shopping cart.  Applying 15 % additional promotional discount to Verbum upgrade prices shows an increase in Library credit value as the Verbum package increases in size.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 7:41 PM

FWIW: Against my better judgement, I upgraded and, at this point I am somewhat disappointed .

First : the price was much higher talking to a sales person than it was looking at the upgrade page, was told there are indeed problems with the upgrade calculator, as I had reported.

Second : I asked very, very specifically if the Verbum Master upgrade had all the data sets and features, was assured it did.

I got to 5.01 min. it Mark Barnes video and realized after checking my settings that I do not have very much at all. 640.00 dollars and I don't have anything worthwhile to me as far as the Program Feature Sets itself working as advertised. ( or being there )

That said, it does seem to be faster and a bit more stable. I have only had two crashes in about 8 hours of work ( which is a new record for Logos stability for me ). I have only had a couple of spinning pizza's. The problem of it opening in a very small screen in the lower left corner is now back, but I am used to that so know what to do.

Download was smooth, indexing time was much improved, though it still hammers your processors at about 148%

It does load a bit slow, or at least seems too as it takes a min. to fill in the screen. At first it looks like artifacts, then fills on in.

It does seem to be quicker when open, scrolling stayed stable for a pretty good while before the usual slowness and jumpiness .

I have a 2009 Macbook Alum. , 2.4 gig core 2 duo with 8 gigs of Ram. which exceeds the min. specs for a Mac.

I will try to get Logos on the phone this week if possible with my work schedule.

All this to say:

1. Beware, BEWARE the upgrade calculator.

2. The program does seem better, stability improved, scrolling improved etc.

3. Be aware you may not get what you think you are buying.

Hopefully Logos can work this out, if not, I have the 30 days to back out of this purchase. 

For those with the newest, really fast machines, some of these things will not be an issue, but do be aware, Logos 5 is still not going to perform like other Mac Programs.

Again,I do think it has been improved quite a bit, but still has a way to go.

Logos is still sorting out sales issues.

Get these things sorted and I think most will be at and beyond where they were with version 4.

Ok, off to check settings again and see if I missed anything.

 

 Note: KSFJ , I would recommend "not"   sending anyone else to the Upgrade Calculator. It is wrong, Per Logos Sales staff. My Purchase was a lot more money than the Upgrade Calculator showed on Logos site. 

Better to just speak to a staff member to avoid conflicts.

Imho of course.

Blessings.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 8:31 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Note: KSFJ , I would recommend "not"   sending anyone else to the Upgrade Calculator. It is wrong, Per Logos Sales staff. My Purchase was a lot more money than the Upgrade Calculator showed on Logos site. 

Concur with calling Logos Sales; looking forward to web site upgrade improvements, including "New to you" for Verbum packages.

Thankful for friendly Sales discussion about Logos 5 Portfolio upgrade, which included adding pre-publications with ship dates to payment plan.  Thankful for $ 46.95 Verbum Capstone upgrade, which included credit for Logos 5 Portfolio and Catholic Library Builder.

Personally like Logos 5 full screen on OS X 10.8.2

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 192
LogosEmployee
Mike Estes - Logos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 9:05 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
First : the price was much higher talking to a sales person than it was looking at the upgrade page, was told there are indeed problems with the upgrade calculator, as I had reported.

How much was the price you saw online? If there are issues with the current discount calculator this is news to me as I am one of several people who have investigated every instance where reports were made that the discount calculator was broken and have found no instances of it being broken. If you recieved the wrong price for your software I want to know as this is not ok.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Second : I asked very, very specifically if the Verbum Master upgrade had all the data sets and features, was assured it did.

I got to 5.01 min. it Mark Barnes video and realized after checking my settings that I do not have very much at all. 640.00 dollars and I don't have anything worthwhile to me as far as the Program Feature Sets itself working as advertised. ( or being there )

What dataset or feature was not found? Looking at the chart (which is generated from the data that actually gives you your licenses, it appears you should have all of the features and datasets included in the Verbum Master. The only differences that I see are the additional book resources. If something is missing I want to know as something needs to be fixed.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
That said, it does seem to be faster and a bit more stable. I have only had two crashes in about 8 hours of work ( which is a new record for Logos stability for me ). I have only had a couple of spinning pizza's. The problem of it opening in a very small screen in the lower left corner is now back, but I am used to that so know what to do.

You should have NO crashes in your software. I'm not saying that it's going to be perfect, but please report any crashes you find. That way the software is improved for both you and other customers. Please create a new thread with the issues of slowness, crashing, etc that you found so that those who investigate issues with the Logos desktop software can notifiy the developers. Comments in a long thread like this will be lost.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

  Note: KSFJ , I would recommend "not"   sending anyone else to the Upgrade Calculator. It is wrong, Per Logos Sales staff. My Purchase was a lot more money than the Upgrade Calculator showed on Logos site. 

As I said above this is news to me; I will talk to your sales person to find out what issues there are in the discount calculator.  Because none have been reported fo me.

Sincerely,
Mike

Posts 192
LogosEmployee
Mike Estes - Logos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 9:42 PM

Stephen Kerr:

          Basic                  $289.96 - $6.87 = $283.09 (value of my library)

          Foundations        $489.95 - $15.24 = $474.71 (value of my library)

          Scripture Study    $889.95 - $102.84 = $787.11 (value of my library)

          Master                 $1,349.95 - $371.06 = $978.89 (value of my library)

          Capstone             $2,289.95 - $1,462.85 = $827.10 (value of my library)

I looked at your prices; In every case you are not paying for a resource you already own.

Those are all correct and you are getting the full value for all of your books that you own in each of those packages when you get the calculated discount price.  That last column is not the value of your library, it is the discount you are recieving. 

The discount is based on the value of the resources you own in the package along with the value of the resources that you do not own, and the discount you also get when things are cheaper when more resources are packed together.  This is exactly what is represented in the numbers you are seeing. 

What is throwing a curve into what you think is the value of your library in a particular package is that things get more cheaper the larger the package you buy.  If you buy 5 things for $10 and 10 things for $15, the things in the larger "package" are cheaper per item.

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 10:37 PM

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. As you're not interested in hypothetical scenarios, but want to know the exact way your upgrade price is calculated (which I quite understand), I'm going to have to bow out, and leave you in Mike's hands. As you already know, I simply don't know for certain the answer to your question.

Mark

Posts 192
LogosEmployee
Mike Estes - Logos | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2012 11:07 PM

I hope this won't confuse the topic any more, but I'll give one exagerated example.

Let's say you owned a resource that had a value of $100. And let's say we threw together a package that had 3 items all sold indivually at a price of $100 and the one item you owned was in that package.  And that the entire package we were selling for $150.  What is the value of your resource in the package if you don't have to pay for it again?  Is it $100?  Or is it $50?  It should be $50 per item.  And your discounted price is $100.

Let's say we had another package that had 5 items all of $100 and you owned one of them.  And we sold the package for $200.  Is the value of the item $100, or $50 or is it $40?  It is now valued at $40 per item.  And your discounted price is $160.

Even more exagerated to make a point.  Let's say we had a package of 3 items all sold separately for $250 each, and we created a package deal where the 3 items sold together was $420.  And let's say you owned 2 of those resources.  What is your final discounted price here?  Do we owe you $80?  Is the price $0 for the package?  The fair price for this package to you would be $140.

This is all due to the value of the resources you already own, the value of the resources you do not own, and the value of the items as a package deal.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 5:29 AM

Morning Mike: When I looked online, the calculator gave a monthly payment of either 37.00 or 39.00 and change.

When I talked to the ( very kind ) sales rep, it came out to about 60.00 a month, which is quite different.

As far as feature set: I think everything is there, just not working correctly or, there is the possibility of the dreaded- Operator Error.  smile.

Example: Cannot use the library feature as shown. If I click on library and then try to read info, it just disappears. Some books clicked on do not open and panel disappears.

Did not have time to try and float panel as full pane.

Very few resources seem to have the timeline tagging. ( Again, have not looked at them all).

Did run into scrolling issues after using program a while ( yes-post indexing) , restart of Logos cleaned this up, may be memory leak.

Yes to crash, cannot remember exact scenario .

Again, Version 5 IS better.

Just having a few issues , which I think is to be somewhat expected with a large roll-out across this many platforms/installs/different "other" programs on those platforms.

Forums threads indicate this may well be Logos best Upgrade Roll-Out since I have known the company. No one, not Microsoft, Apple, or anyone else has large Roll-Outs without some issues, just the nature of the beast.

The one I think should take priority right now is the sales/upgrade software. As I said, I did get different prices when checking at first, that did stabilize, but again, very different prices from web-site and sales staff, some "could" see this as a "bait and switch" type thing. I know it was not as I saw the issues from the start of the Roll-Out.

Thus, I am sure you have more things to tend to than this right now, we have 30 days to get it sorted or changed.

Little disappointments ? Yea, sure, but nothing huge. I guess I could also be guilty of transferring some frustrations from 4 to 5, trying to guard myself from that as 4 was indeed a rough patch for me.

Hope that helps.

Posts 10109
Forum MVP
NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 5:53 AM

Charles,

thanks for your decription. As a fellow user who has still to decide over the package I want to upgrade to, I'm very interested in the calculator bug you describe. OT: when the website would offer me an upgrade for X and someone on the phone (who should only make better prices) would say "I'll process this for you for X plus 50% and this is a real bargain!" I'd be inclined to say "Let me think this over, maybe I call back, okay" and after some thinking follow through with the website... Why was it that the website showed you a smaller price? Or did the calculator offer you a 18 month payment plan and now you're going 12 month? The 50% increase would fit then. So far I think you're the only user in the forum who tells it this way and I'm curious.

Mick

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 6:02 AM

Not sure , That could certainly be an explanation. I was on a job site when they called. I did ask if my price included the discount coupon.

Again, I'm not being overly critical, just reporting the situation for the benefit of all, Logos included. As stated several times, when the roll-out started, each time I logged in and looked at upgrade prices, I got different numbers, that seems to have been fixed.

As to the difference in Price, sales staff told me directly this was something they had been dealing with.

 

Posts 670
Sleiman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 11:13 AM

I might be beating up a dead horse by this, but I couldn't help it so excuse me.

Stephen Kerr:
The second sentance is not correct.  You are mixing Discount Price and Discount Percent and applying them to Value of My Current Library.  They are not interchangable.  Discount Price is the price I pay (bigger going up from Master to Capstone) versus Discount Percent which is the percentage off the retail price (smaller going up from Master to Capstone). 

What you maybe missing is that the larger the discount the less is the discounted value of your library! Although this doesn't sound right but it is. It is simple:

If the discount is 70% you pay 30% for the remaining books in the package, but your library is discounted at the same rate, so you multiply its value by 30% (NOT 70%), since the same discount percentage has to apply to both sides of the equation!

The Masters and Capstone's discounts are perhaps somewhere closer to 75 and 85 % respectively.

God bless

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 4:36 PM

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for your responses and feedback.  I appreciated and considered all of them with the sincerity in which they were given.  Also, I realize that I tend to get down to a level of detail, appropriate or not, moreso than what is the norm .  I have been told by those around me that it can be annoying.  Please know that I did not intend to be short with anyone.  It's how my thinking process works.  Again, thank you all for your paitience and responses.

KS4J,  Thank you for keeping the additional 15% discount in front of me.  Sometimes I look past the obvious.

Mike Estes,

Your response is very helpful...not exagerated.  Now that I have heard from many of the forum subscribers I am able to connect the dots.  In a nutshell, The value of My Current Library is based on its contents in relation to the discounted, packaged price of the base package to which it being compared.  It is variable.  I think others had attempted to point that out before, in pieces and parts, but it is always good to hear it from Logos directly.

There are a couple of comments that I think are worth restating:

1)  I know that the differnce between the Full Retail Price and the Discount Price is the Dollar Amount of the Discount.  However, the basis of the Dollar Amount of Discount is the contents of My Current Library...nothing more, nothing less.  In other words, Dollar Amount of Discount is, in essence, the Value of My Current Library - that is, the value of what the customer brings to the table.  I know I had said that in an earlier post, but it is important from our (the customers) perspective.  I understand now that that it is relation to the new Verbum Base Package to which it is compared.  Got it.  Whatever you call it...and I want to make sure you are hearing this clearly (not being rude)...whatever you call it, I'm getting less of it when I upgrade to Capstone versus Master.  That is not a good position for a customer to be in.  Not good.  It is also a very challenging sales position to be in...which you are experiencing currently.

2)  the definition of the word "fair" is very interesting and something worth talking about.  Like the meaning of the word "discount", it involves the perspective of those individuals who are involved in the transaction.  What is percieved to be "fair" to one may or may not be percieved "fair" to all.  Personnaly, I would be only be using that word in the form of a question in my conversations with others versus a statement.  

On the theme of "fair", the sliding value of a customers resources is troublesome.  I think the management team has work to do.  The new pricing model is confusing.  It is not transparent.  I say that will all respect due to the wonderful product and work that Logos does.  Including you, Mike.  Everyone is to be comended for bringing a very useful product to market.

Am I upgrading to Logos 5 Verbum?  Yes. 

I'm going to wait for the "what's new to me" comparison page to get into production.  That will give me time to cointinue analysis on the comparison spreadsheet that I had to built to help me in my person decision.  Sorry, upgrading to Verbum Capstone is off the table due to the disparity in the value proposition.

Blessings,

Steve

Posts 2416
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 4:49 PM

I have no clue what the value of my library is BUT they offered me an upgrade to Capstone for LESS then a set that is in it that I have wanted.  The rest were "FREE"

[[I spent hours looking at the price of every resource between Master and Capstone - Will not be able to buy anything in the Black Friday nor Christmas sales - my Logos budget is spent!]]

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 5:15 PM

Stephen Kerr:
Upgrading to Verbum Capstone is off the table due to the disparity in the value proposition.

Observation: the value of an upgrade depends on the usefulness of the new resources plus budgetary constraints.  Larger Logos packages and bundles have lower cost per resource.  For spreadsheet analysis, may want regular price in one column and useful factor, which ranges from 0.00 to 1.00; third column could have useful value: regular price * useful factor = useful value.  Could compare sum(useful value) with package upgrade cost.

Personally upgraded to Logos 5 Portfolio since sum(useful value) was substantially more upgrade cost; the upgrade included a number of items on my wish list.  Likewise choose Verbum Capstone upgrade since the sum(useful value) was significantly more than upgrade amount.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 5:27 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Stephen Kerr:
Upgrading to Verbum Capstone is off the table due to the disparity in the value proposition.

Observation: the value of an upgrade depends on the usefulness of the new resources plus budgetary constraints.  Larger Logos packages and bundles have lower cost per resource.  For spreadsheet analysis, may want regular price in one column and useful factor, which ranges from 0.00 to 1.00; third column could have useful value: regular price * useful factor = useful value.  Could compare sum(useful value) with package upgrade cost.

Personally upgraded to Logos 5 Portfolio since sum(useful value) was substantially more upgrade cost; the upgrade included a number of items on my wish list.  Likewise choose Verbum Capstone upgrade since the sum(useful value) was significantly more than upgrade amount.

 

 

Are you trying to get me started again?

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 7:22 PM

Mike Estes - Logos:
Let's say you owned a resource that had a value of $100. And let's say we threw together a package that had 3 items all sold indivually at a price of $100 and the one item you owned was in that package.  And that the entire package we were selling for $150.  What is the value of your resource in the package if you don't have to pay for it again?  Is it $100?  Or is it $50?  It should be $50 per item.  And your discounted price is $100.

But what are the odds of all three resources having a value of $100.  I think it will be very likely that one would be $100, another $25, and the third will be $10.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 7:22 PM

Update: I spoke with Logos this evening and they corrected and explained the Price difference I experienced, I received an e-mail at about the same time I called, thus, they were already aware and making the correction.

The issue was NOT  the upgrade calculator, but simply not getting all discounts done by phone ( I was in the country, poor cell phone coverage) .

Long story short, Logos took care of it in less time than it takes me to write about it-Great Service.

Next: When opening Logos 5 this evening and resetting my layouts, everything seems to be there as it should be, very pleased with this result as well.

Thus, I have to say: Logos has done a good job with 5, customer support took care of my issues very well and all in all, at this stage, I am pleased with 5.

A big thanks to the Logos Staff and all of you that helped through the forums.

Blessings all.

Posts 2416
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 7:28 PM

Stephen Kerr:

Are you trying to get me started again?

Yes. BUT on a different track.  As I said: For me one set paid for the upgrade to Capstone.  Review what is in the upgrades might prove a better way of looking at the upgrades.  Are you going to use the resources?  If not then $1 is too much unless you are just adding resources to add resources. 

As KS4J said: Implied: review the resources - are you going to use them and what are they worth to you? 

 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2012 7:47 PM

Stephen Kerr:
Are you trying to get me started again?

No.  Concur with different track for analyzing upgrades.  My order history includes 7 package upgrades plus some library builders.  Larger Logos packages and bundles have lower cost per resource.  In hindsight, fewer upgrades would have been a bit less expensive overall.  For the non-free resources in my library, my average acquisition cost has been a bit more than $ 2.31 per resource.

Many years ago learned an adage: "A Bargain is Not a Bargain if cannot use it."

Thankful for a number of usable Logos bargains; looking forward to upcoming sale specials in the next few weeks.

Keep Smiling Smile

Page 7 of 9 (161 items) « First ... < Previous 5 6 7 8 9 Next > | RSS