Disappointed

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This post has 272 Replies | 18 Followers

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 5:39 AM

Meik:
Thank you guys for your answers, now I understand. 

ExcellentSmile

Posts 10648
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 6:53 AM

Well, well, well.  Ah yes, "play it again Sam".   (Whatever happened to Smiling Sam?   I hope he's having a nice new year.)

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 8:43 AM

MJ. Smith:
My patience is running out - not at you in particular but at the difficulty of getting Logos forum users to understand that Logos has said that the free update is coming.

Hi MJ. I can hear your frustation.Still, because of the number of people having this difficulty, I will say the communications from Logos is still the issue - not the users of the forums.  There has to be a reason why people come here to have their questions answered after talking to Logos.

Posts 12
Danny Truitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 11:09 AM

I posted here several weeks ago and my disappointment with Logos management remains.  Surely the fact that this thread is still going is proof that Logos did not do a good job on this rollout.

I cannot judge whether the confusion was intentional in an attempt to mask the fact that they are charging for code–which they said they would never do–or if they just didn't think through the rollout process as they should have.  The undeniable fact is that they created confusion.

If they did not intend to throw up a smoke screen, it was certainly a poor choice of timing to change all the library names at the same time they released Logos 5.  It certainly seems that the "crossgrade" was only initiated as an attempt to quell the storm after the initial confusion and discontent caused by the rollout.

The fact that the "free" Logos 5 upgrade is still not available speaks volumes.  What would have been wrong with rolling out Logos 5, seeing how the user base responded to it, and then making a clear announcement stating that all libraries would be renamed and restructured, with clear instructions as to how those renamed and restructured libraries would relate to the existing libraries and how it would affect those who chose not to move to Logos 5?

I am probably in the minority among Logos users.  I hold no position in any religious organization.  I use Logos for my personal Bible study.  I don't need huge libraries, but I do want full functionality with the resources that I own.  As owner of the old "Leaders" library, I chose to purchase the "crossgrade" in order to get the Timeline function.  That meant I had to pay $159.95 to get the one item I wanted.

As most of you will know, the Timeline is classed as a "dataset."  Even in their own definition, Logos says that the Timeline resource will read "tags" (this is computer coding) in your resources to display events in the timeline.  To get the functionality of three other "datasets" that I would like to have–Bible Facts:People/Places/Things–I'll have to pay another $69.30 for the Starter upgrade.

And don't even get me started on the "interest-free" purchase plans!  If I buy the Starter upgrade and make four payments of $22 and change, I pay a total of $89.30.  I don't call that interest-free.  $20 in fees for four months financing–that's an 87% APR, folks.  If you take that option, it will probably show up somewhere in fine print, or either Logos has found a loophole in the consumer finance laws.

But back to the subject at hand, it is my personal opinion that this is the cause for the delay in the rollout to the "free" version of Logos 5.  The programers are having to build a "crippled" copy of Logos 5 that will not read the various "tags" that exist in–or have been added to–our current libraries.

Whether intentional or not, Logos has created two versions of the base software–one that will read the so-called tags and one that will not.  The fact that at least some of these so-called datasets will work with your existing resources is proof to me that we're paying for code.

Do the so-called datasets add value?  Yes, they do.  But I believe the management team at Logos could have conceived a better plan that still would have generated income for the company with far less confusion and disappointment for their customer base.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 11:34 AM

I didn't read all the pages of this post.  I can only add my own experience.

I had a problem that occurred as a result of the Logos 5 cross over.  I won't get into the details, but I will say that I did have to call CS.  I then was elevated to someone in upper Tech support who had to take over my computer in order to fix the problem.  When I first called and spoke to the FIRST person, I explained the problem.  I discussed this issue...he admitted that the wording and marketing of Logos 5 was not as well done as it could have been.  I was then moved to the second person, who basically said the same thing.  Finally, my main guy who took over my computer and was super nice, heard my frustrations and admitted that the wording of the emails, blogs, front page of logos, etc., was not clear, was confusing, and made people think that Logos was one of two things:  Readily available to all right now or...not available unless you purchased a BIG package.  Anyway, here's my final thoughts on this whole thing.

Logos is a company run by people who are not perfect and who need to make a profit.  It is illogical to say "I spent SO much money on books etc. with this company and I expect _____ for free (unless, of course, that was the initial promise).  How much one spends on something in no way gives a standing to expect FREE items.  I am the one who chose to spend thousands last year.  I am the one who has the right to hit the DELETE button on the offers, and I am the one who puts my order in.  No one twisted my arm.

Further, Logos is a COMPANY.  They NEED to be compensated for the THOUSANDS of man hours put in on this upgrade.  If they don't make money...they go out of business...and there goes Logos.  It's plain business sense.

Finally, Logos is a company RUN BY PEOPLE.  They are not perfect, but they do put out an amazing product...faults and all.  All I know is that ANY TIME I have EVER called them for CS...they have bent over backwards to fix a problem, refund me my money, or give me FREE support (Many companies charge for CS after a certain time frame.)

So, that's my .02, for what it's worth.

Happy New Years blessings, and may God shower the entire Logos team with HIS Wisdom and discernment as they serve Him through serving His people!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 12
Danny Truitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 12:22 PM

Cynthia:

You stated that you didn't read all the posts.  Apparently, one of the ones you didn't read was mine.

I have used the Logos software for years and it works great.  I have never even had to call or email customer support.  My complaint is not about poor customer support.

Also, I fully understand that all commercial enterprises–whether privately held or public–exist for the express purpose of showing a profit for the owners and/or shareholders.  My complaint is not about the company making a profit.

I understand that Logos is run by people.  I understand that people are not perfect.  My complaint in not about imperfect people.

I expected nothing for free.  In that respect, I was not disappointed.  I expected nothing and I got nothing.  My complaint is not about not getting something for free.

My complaint, in case you read this, is concerning the confusion caused in the initial rollout of Logos 5, caused primarily, in my opinion, by the renaming and changing the content of all the libraries, and then a few days later, offering a "minimal crossgrade" for those who couldn't wait for the free upgrade to Logos 5, which is promised sometime in the future.

The fact that Logos does some things well does not excuse them for doing some things poorly.  We are all accountable for all our actions and our good deeds don't excuse our bad.

I've worked extensively in the music business.  I've played on many studio sessions.  If I play my part badly, it will be noticed and I will have to fix it before I leave the studio.  If I don't fix it quickly, with a pleasant attitude, I won't be getting session work in the future.  I get paid for what I do if I do it well and in a timely manner.

I believe it behoves Logos to address all issues that pertain to customer satisfaction, in spite of the fact that overall, they have a great product and do many things well.  Hope that makes sense.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 12:46 PM

Fortunately, this is not a fact but a rather a false proposition based on the misunderstanding that follows:

Daniel Truitt:
Timeline resource will read "tags" (this is computer coding) in your resources to display events in the timeline

Tags are not computer coding in the sense that Logos does not charge us for. Logos does not charge us for the application - the logic that programmers write to create the user interface and all the functions of the programs that we use in our study. Tags are part of a mark-up language - they are part of the resource which we do pay for. They tell the Logos program what is a person's name, what is a place name, what tag identifies the same location in the original Greek, etc.  This is the tagging that makes us willing to pay more for a Logos edition than for a Google e-book edition.

Daniel Truitt:
the Timeline is classed as a "dataset."

That is because it is a dataset in the normal computer use of the term. An alternative, somewhat obsolete term, would be a database table. The more common term dataset is probably clearer to the non-professional.

Daniel Truitt:
Whether intentional or not, Logos has created two versions of the base software–one that will read the so-called tags and one that will not.

Tags is the standard name for the tags of a markup language.

It has been true since at least L3 that one needed to buy the datasets to support the higher end functions; in L3 you also essentially bought the code as an add-in. That practice ended with L4. Any time Logos adds a type of tag, they have to modify the code to recognize tag and to behave properly if you don't have the resource supporting the tag. What is different this time is that the code to ignore the tags was not implemented at the same time as the code processing the tags

Daniel Truitt:
I believe it behooves Logos to address all issues that pertain to customer satisfaction

Here, I definitely agree with you. I apologize that I chose your post to correct misinformation - but there is so much misinformation in this thread that confuses people and yours happened to be the last.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 12
Danny Truitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 1:23 PM

MJ:

Thanks for your explanation.  Believe me, I understand.  In a sense, it's a matter of semantics.

I am fairly proficient in several programming languages.  I have not attempted–nor will I ever–to decompile Logos.  I don't care what language it's written in.  But whether we call them tags, APIs, handles, or indices, we're talking about markers that are placed on certain code segments that have to be read by other code segments.  That just comes out as "code" to me.

My only contention in this respect is that Logos could simply have said, "We will always furnish you, free of charge, with an upgrade to our next level of software that will have basic functionality with all your existing resources.  That leaves the door open for any future charges for increased functionality.  Another option would have been to have said nothing, so that there are no expectations created.

I am not at all opposed to paying for upgrades.  I just expect to know exactly what is and isn't in any particular upgrade.  As the owner of a small recording studio, I have many pieces of recording, video, and sound processing software that have to be updated on a fairly regular basis, in addition to the computer OS itself.  I pay for these and I don't whine about it (well, maybe a little), but I know what each upgrade will do before I purchase and install it.  These manufacturers always make it very clear what new functionality will be implemented, usually long before the actual release.  And, unless it's a bug fix, you're going to pay for it.

But again, I understand what you're saying, and thanks for taking the time to respond.

Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 2:30 PM

Daniel and others....

I guess I should have clarified my statement above.  I wasn't addressing ANYONE in particular.  I wasn't even addressing the OP.  I was just addressing the issue as a whole because it has been around the board for a while on various threads and I just put in my .02. 

Bowing out...

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 4625
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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 5:10 PM

Cynthia in Florida:

Daniel and others....

I guess I should have clarified my statement above.  I wasn't addressing ANYONE in particular.  I wasn't even addressing the OP.  I was just addressing the issue as a whole because it has been around the board for a while on various threads and I just put in my .02. 

Bowing out...

Peace, Cynthia!                   Thanks much for "bowing in"!                     I appreciated your kind and gentle and very positive post!                I look forward to the day when more posters to the Logos Forums will treat one another with honour and respect, if not quite like brothers and sisters, although wouldn't that be great!???!               *smile*                              Remember!      2013!  Emmanuel!

           BTW, I'll be coming by your place within the next two months!          Over your place, actually!      My daughter lives on Grand Cayman, in the Caribbean just on the other side of Cuba (West of Jamaica) ;and my wife and I are are heading down there again!            *smile*                    Great to take my Logos with me in a couple of formats!                 The Air Canada Flight leaves Toronto and flies down the "spine" of the Appalachians!    I usually say a few prayers for family and friends and various Logos Bible Software uses when I take this route while I'm looking out the window and at the Air Canada computer in front of my eyes that tells me how fast we are flying - how high we are flying - and exactly where we are.  For example amonst many a prayer there will be a  "Bob or a Robert" and a "Justin" near West Virginia and Virginia and a "Jack" as I'm getting over North Caroline and a "Cynthia" as we fly over Florida.     That's a big state and we are in your skyways for a while!     Thanks for hosting us!

                                Again, thanks for a pleasant post!

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 12
Danny Truitt | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 5:51 PM

Well, Milford,

That was really on topic.  Sorry you didn't find my post kind, gentle and very positive.  With 270 posts in this thread titled, "Disappointed," I'd say there probably is a legitimate issue or two that Logos needs to address.  And don't bother about praying for me as you fly over my state.  I'll get by.

By the way, I'm not bowing out.  I'm running out and slamming the door behind me.  And no need to post another response for my sake.  I'll be turning off notifications of replies to this thread.  I can't stand to read another "I love Logos no matter what they do" post and then be criticized for daring to say they might need to change something.

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 6:16 PM

Daniel Truitt:
Sorry you didn't find my post kind, gentle and very positive.

Peace, Daniel!                              Actually you shared a pretty good post and made quite a number of valid points!              I think Logos has to take Great Responsibility for that launching of Logos 5 that  someone referred to at "The Great TrainWreck of 2012," or something like that.

                     I'm about ready to "give it up" for the day; however, Daniel, I promise to examine my posts on this thread later on this evening after my wife and I have "tea," or early tomorrow morning.                If I said anything like you intimate, I will certainly be making a very strong and sincere apology to you for any ugly words I may have said!

            With all my heart, for many years, in all my dealings with others   ........           I try to treat others with dignity and respect!           Again, Daniel, you had a pretty good post too, I thought!            *smile*          I'm sorry you won't be reading about my saying it because you "turned off."         

                               And!          I'm not being "contrary"; however I will be talking to our Gracious God and Father about you and your life in a few minutes ....          asking Him in Jesus' Holy Name for His Spirit and guidance and wisdom that you may be truly Blessed in 2013 and that you may be a great blessing to others, starting where you are with your own life and loved ones and "blooming where you are planted"!                         Indeed!                 Peace and Joy!    

                                       

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 93
painfree | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 3 2013 6:56 PM

Wow, I am so glad to have come upon this thread. I too am very disappointed with just the fact that they had an "introductory price for a limited time" and this was for existing customers!   Sad.. really sad that these games are played and just this alone has caused me to basically throw the baby out with the wash water.  Believe me, I understand Logos is in business, but unfortunately it is joining the ranks of those companies that refuse to honor customer loyalty and instead revert to unsavory practices like "limited time"..rather than discounting at the same rate for existing customers period without a time limit.  

 

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