New Feature in Logos 5: Popular Highlights

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 12:38 PM

Frank Sauer:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data.

Quite true. However, you cannot generate the data from your data nor can you identify the effect of your data. Arm & Hammer can't call my mother's oatmeal cookies theirs even though they supply an ingredient for them. If Logos permitted us to limit who was used in the statistics (e.g. compare against FreeWill Baptist ministers living in Bellingham) you would have a strong case. As long as Logos makes sure that the sample size is large enough to ensure that the data is anonymous, they have a strong case. As for where the tipping point is, I'm too lazy to attempt the math.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 12:51 PM

All of these arguments assume the definition of Personal Data.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 12:52 PM

Frank Sauer:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.

No-one is disputing that. But what's shared isn't your data. It's their data.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 12:59 PM

Mark Barnes:
Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.

It isn't a data set that I paid for and I prefer not having my Bible software waste time telling me what other people are thinking. My discernment begins and ends with the choice of material that I study and I'm really annoyed that I have to waste time switching off, or dealing with the side-effects of these other "thoughts". There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and  No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.

Dave
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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 1:01 PM

Mark Barnes:

Frank Sauer:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.

No-one is disputing that. But what's shared isn't your data. It's their data.

I think this is the crux point at which most people get confused.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 2:01 PM

Dave Hooton:

Mark Barnes:
Like everything else in Logos, Popular Highlights is another dataset to be used discerningly.

It isn't a data set that I paid for and I prefer not having my Bible software waste time telling me what other people are thinking. My discernment begins and ends with the choice of material that I study and I'm really annoyed that I have to waste time switching off, or dealing with the side-effects of these other "thoughts". There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and  No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.

Yes

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 2:17 PM

 

Dave Hooton:

It isn't a data set that I paid for and I prefer not having my Bible software waste time telling me what other people are thinking. My discernment begins and ends with the choice of material that I study and I'm really annoyed that I have to waste time switching off, or dealing with the side-effects of these other "thoughts". There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and  No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.

I couldn't agree more. I use my Bible Software to study God's Word to produce sermons and Bible Studies for my people as well as using it to pursue my own personal academic interests. For my own personal devotions I use a printed Bible. End of story. 

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Alan

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 2:35 PM

Mark Barnes:

Frank Sauer:
When you generate anonymous statistics using user data - it is compiled of each users personal data. Just because Logos calls it anonymous does not negate the fact that they are using our data to generate theirs.

No-one is disputing that. But what's shared isn't your data. It's their data.

So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 2:47 PM

Frank Sauer:
So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?

Yes, it's your data. But it's not shared. What's shared is aggregated data, not your data.

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Joshua Coady | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 2:55 PM

Frank Sauer:

So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?

No, that is your data. The number of times the 3rd sentence of paragraph 4 on page 19 of book xyz is highlighted is their data. The fact that you highlighted it is yours, the fact that a total of 57 people highlighted it is theirs, or at least theirs to use.

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 4:13 PM

Mark Barnes:

Frank Sauer:
So what i highlight, read and how much time i spend using the program and resources is not my data?

Yes, it's your data. But it's not shared. What's shared is aggregated data, not your data.

How do they compile their aggregated data? By taking my data, your data and everyone's data into their calculations ... Unless we are all missing something. So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out. Many websites and software companies have already had the courts rule in the users favor in these areas. Think Apple & Google with tracking "anonymous" locations, web usage, etc

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 4:34 PM

Frank Sauer:
How do they compile their aggregated data? By taking my data, your data and everyone's data into their calculations ... Unless we are all missing something. So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out.

I completely agree that there should be an opportunity to opt out, and have consistently argued for that in this thread. But I stand by my original point: Logos are not sharing your data.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 4:39 PM

I need to read the EULA closer but I would contend that they could say legally that by allowing the sync to happen you give them the right to "your data."  But once again what is the definition of personal data?

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Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 4:44 PM

Frank Sauer:
So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out. Many websites and software companies have already had the courts rule in the users favor in these areas. Think Apple & Google with tracking "anonymous" locations, web usage, etc

You can opt out, by running the software without an Internet connection. But it sounds like you're really asking for is the ability to opt-out at a more fine-grained level: you want this Internet-enabled function, but not that one.

Different companies support different levels of tracking / opt-out. Google lets me choose to use the search engine "logged out", at the price of losing some features, including having it store my search history for my own retrieval. However I do not have the option of opting out of their overall logging: my queries, my visits, my time of date, all go into aggregate features like Google Trends, their stats on when people are searching, the data they report to advertisers on impressions vs. clicks, etc.

I don't believe there's any web site in the world, for example, that doesn't log visitor counts, IP addresses, time of day, queries run, etc. (Excepting privacy proxy sites run specifically to NOT track those things.)

We're willing to consider your suggestion, and giving you more control over what goes into what aggregates. But I'd really appreciate your stepping back and thinking over your objections. What, really, is the cost to you of our aggregating massive amounts of data into individually anonymous, but collectively useful/interesting data?

Sure, popular highlights are a little surprising when you first see them appear in a book. But I've come to find the data incredibly interesting, and even fun. When reading and seeing a popular highlight 'on the horizon' in my peripheral vision, I get a sense of anticipation for "the good stuff." When paging through a book quickly I find the popular highlights an easy way to get the key point / insight of a section.

And if you don't like them, they're easy to turn off forever.

Other than a "don't track me!" instinct (I have it too!), what is the actual harm of this collective data mining?

And can you appreciate the benefits that we believe will accrue to you and all the users? Like our being able to remove books few people read from collections, reducing prices or reallocating those funds to other content / tools used by more users. Like identifying areas of interest so we can offer more resources in that area. Like improving search results to show "smarter" contexts for hits. (Your hit surrounded not by x words to the left and right, but the most highlighted fragment containing your hit.)

Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 4:54 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.

Logos already has an 'opt-out', called "Send Feedback". I believe that people who have "Send Feedback" to "none" should not have their data aggregated in this way. I am happy to send feedback, and will continue to do so, but it seems to me that this sort of issue is exactly what that option is for.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 5:01 PM

Reading Word Biblical Commentary on Abraham, and finding this handy. Will be using this more in the future, to find the highlights.

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Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 5:23 PM

Interesting. Bob, any chance you could elaborate a bit more? Perhaps give us examples of what this data gathering has allowed us to have as features/tools already? How this practice has already had an impact on Logos research and how that research has helped us, the end user.

I find this facinating and can certainly see how gathering certain information from users habits/usage could help with R&D at Logos.

My questions are not limited to the highlight features Btw.

As for me, I have no issue with Logos getting the info from my usage, I have nothing to hide. As long as my private data like Paying bills and such are not at risk through some hacker using Logos as a doorway, then I'm fine with it.

However, if getting this info is slowing the performance of Logos on my computer , then I would ask a "rethink" until Logos has dealt with more of the speed memory leak issues.

I do wish crash reports could be sent directly to Logos "when they happen" instead of having to post logs.

Thankfully, I have not been having those in 5 ( Yea!!)

Again, a bit more info and some real life examples of how this is beneficial , might be helpful to all.

Blessings and , Thanks for your time.

 

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Frank Sauer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 5:35 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Frank Sauer:
So if this is the case as many have expressed allow us to opt out. Many websites and software companies have already had the courts rule in the users favor in these areas. Think Apple & Google with tracking "anonymous" locations, web usage, etc

You can opt out, by running the software without an Internet connection. But it sounds like you're really asking for is the ability to opt-out at a more fine-grained level: you want this Internet-enabled function, but not that one.

Different companies support different levels of tracking / opt-out. Google lets me choose to use the search engine "logged out", at the price of losing some features, including having it store my search history for my own retrieval. However I do not have the option of opting out of their overall logging: my queries, my visits, my time of date, all go into aggregate features like Google Trends, their stats on when people are searching, the data they report to advertisers on impressions vs. clicks, etc.

I don't believe there's any web site in the world, for example, that doesn't log visitor counts, IP addresses, time of day, queries run, etc. (Excepting privacy proxy sites run specifically to NOT track those things.)

We're willing to consider your suggestion, and giving you more control over what goes into what aggregates. But I'd really appreciate your stepping back and thinking over your objections. What, really, is the cost to you of our aggregating massive amounts of data into individually anonymous, but collectively useful/interesting data?

Sure, popular highlights are a little surprising when you first see them appear in a book. But I've come to find the data incredibly interesting, and even fun. When reading and seeing a popular highlight 'on the horizon' in my peripheral vision, I get a sense of anticipation for "the good stuff." When paging through a book quickly I find the popular highlights an easy way to get the key point / insight of a section.

And if you don't like them, they're easy to turn off forever.

Other than a "don't track me!" instinct (I have it too!), what is the actual harm of this collective data mining?

And can you appreciate the benefits that we believe will accrue to you and all the users? Like our being able to remove books few people read from collections, reducing prices or reallocating those funds to other content / tools used by more users. Like identifying areas of interest so we can offer more resources in that area. Like improving search results to show "smarter" contexts for hits. (Your hit surrounded not by x words to the left and right, but the most highlighted fragment containing your hit.)

Again, we're listening to the feedback and will make whatever changes are necessary to keep our user base happy -- we aren't trying to antagonize anyone -- but I'd like to make sure we've discussed both the good and the bad about this.

Bob,

My issue is more with user choice. Personally until I saw the negativity toward users concerned about it, I was quite indifferent. However after getting the catchall Logos response of turn off internet and lose functionality that goes with it when I asked about an opt out feature, it became a bigger issue.

The point is for some the forced community input will be fine, for others it will be unwanted and they should be able to block it without repercussion. For some the data collection will be no big deal, for others it will be and again it should be open to an opt out without repercussion. Simple fact not everyone wants the "Faithlife" community version of Bible Study in their Logos software and there should be a no strings attached opt out - so discussing the good and bad comes down to what bad at all exists in allowing users to opt out - it is only good for the user.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 5:44 PM

Dave Hooton:
There should be an option in Settings that says "Use community information" Yes/No and  No means I don't get the information and it doesn't affect any features in Library or resources.

Yes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1531
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 30 2012 5:48 PM

Frank Sauer:
My issue is more with user choice. Personally until I saw the negativity toward users concerned about it, I was quite indifferent. However after getting the catchall Logos response of turn off internet and lose functionality that goes with it when I asked about an opt out feature, it became a bigger issue.

Yes +1

 

 

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