Bible sense lexicon wiki page is now attached to the Bible Word Study

Page 1 of 1 (20 items)
This post has 19 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Dec 4 2012 5:20 PM

See http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5$3a_Bible_Sense_Lexicon

I've included some screen prints off the web to give English examples rather than assuming the reader will follow the reading suggestions. I have mixed feelings about this and am interested in feedback.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 25189
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 4 2012 5:58 PM

MJ. Smith:
I've included some screen prints off the web to give English examples rather than assuming the reader will follow the reading suggestions.

"Communication" in the BSL is more self-explanatory than the web examples which require a different conceptual grasp (Wordnet is the worst because of the text style). The reading examples are great for learning Wordnet but hardly pertinent to understanding BSL.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 4 2012 6:38 PM

Dave Hooton:
The reading examples are great for learning Wordnet but hardly pertinent to understanding BSL.

This is a useful piece of information - I have clearly failed to show how the BSL is derived directly from WordNet - down to the definitions of concepts being identical. The BSL essentially just adds Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words to WordNet. I've made revisions which I hope will help.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1511
Forum MVP
Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 4:52 AM

Thanks MJ. I think it is extremely interesting to know that the BSL is derived from WordNet. Thanks for including that in the Wiki.

Posts 25189
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 1:49 PM

MJ. Smith:

Dave Hooton:
The reading examples are great for learning Wordnet but hardly pertinent to understanding BSL.

This is a useful piece of information - I have clearly failed to show how the BSL is derived directly from WordNet - down to the definitions of concepts being identical. The BSL essentially just adds Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic words to WordNet. I've made revisions which I hope will help.

Why is this so important when the aim is to promote understanding of BSL? You are effectively advertising other products when a one line reference is all that is needed  e.g  it is advertised in Concepts and Terminology and again (more seriously) in FAQ.:-

Question: What is the relationship between the Bible Sense Lexicon and WordNet from Princeton University?
Answer: The Bible Sense Lexicon is built upon WordNet from Princeton University. Looking a word up in WordNet will often help a beginner understand the Logos multilingual version. Note that the current Logos database (2012) only includes nouns.

The Q presumes a relationship, when it should be "Is BSL related to Wordnet?" The answer contains a statement that the BSL "only includes nouns", which would be more useful/pertinent to know in What is the BSL?

The first section asks What is the BSL?  The answer is two paragraphs about "Exploring", a caveat and a couple of notes but no illustrations.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 5:23 PM

Dave Hooton:
Why is this so important when the aim is to promote understanding of BSL?

Because the BSL IS WordNet. It is critical to understand that the BSL is NOT a standard semantic web. If it were, one would see individual nets for Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; the concepts would be the concepts of the original language at the time that the Scriptures were written. If one does not understand that Logos appended the original language sense/lemmas onto a contemporary English net, the hierarchy, sense divisions and groupings make no sense.

WordNet is not a product in the normal sense. It is a research database representing more than 20 years of research. It is the data behind a number of applications; it is a standard for testing and training natural language processing algorithms. I'm simply trying to put forth the explanation of the BSL that Logos' employees set forth.

I clearly have still not quite communicated what I need to communicate in the wiki - on the other hand, the wiki is not the place to explain the shift in thinking of what constitutes dictionaries and thesauruses etc. The semantic basis of the Louw-Nida numbers represents another example of the fundamental shift.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 25189
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 5:54 PM

MJ. Smith:
Because the BSL IS WordNet. It is critical to understand that the BSL is NOT a standard semantic web. If it were, one would see individual nets for Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek; the concepts would be the concepts of the original language at the time that the Scriptures were written. If one does not understand that Logos appended the original language sense/lemmas onto a contemporary English net, the hierarchy, sense divisions and groupings make no sense.

BSL needs to be understood for what it is, rather then what it is not (most users would not have expectations built around a 'standard' semantic web). The emphasis on "not" is producing a tutorial in another product. Acknowledge what needs to be acknowledged but provide a Guide for the BSL

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 6:16 PM

I understand your point Dave but what MJ is explaining is important to at least me personally.  I'm glad she did. Its very helpful to know that the lemmas are appended onto a contemporary English net as opposed to individual nets for Hebrew and Greek.  I unfortunately see people misusing the BSL  and committing exegetical fallacies if they don't understand this.  It is a mistake to suppose that Greek is really just another form of English.   BTW, that is a huge problem with another tool in Logos -- the interlinear.  IMHO,  interlinears are bad.  Reverse interlinears are worse.

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 6:26 PM

Dave Hooton:
The Q presumes a relationship,

Modified.

Dave Hooton:
The first section asks What is the BSL?

Concerns justified - the primary material originally here has been moved in response to your original concerns. Given the nature of this tool, how to best describe it to people not familiar with computational linguistics is a bit of a challenge - necessary challenge but still a challenge. I'm keeping the forum questions such as "how do I use this in building a sermon" in mind as a way to judge the drafts.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 6:48 PM

Dave Hooton:
BSL needs to be understood for what it is,

I agree but BSL has no cogent structure other than the structure provided by WordNet. I can't see a way to explain what it is without first explaining what WordNet is. It feels like I'm trying to explain algebra with no reference to arithmetic or imaginary numbers.

Dave Hooton:
(most users would not have expectations built around a 'standard' semantic web)

This is true. However, a number of the younger users, linguists and computer nerds will. I need to meet their needs as well.

Dave Hooton:
provide a Guide for the BSL

Are there specific issues relating to the BSL that you think I've omitted or glossed over? I certainly want the reader of the wiki page to have gotten all the information they expected.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 7:16 PM

I've tried to moderate the WordNet aspect by the addition of Louw Nida. I think this modification to context should help address some of your concerns.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 25189
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 10:18 PM

MJ. Smith:

I've tried to moderate the WordNet aspect by the addition of Louw Nida. I think this modification to context should help address some of your concerns.

Let me illustrate the flow (slightly dramatised):-

1. What is the BSL

It is a dictionary of concepts that lets you explore the meaning of bible words  which are grouped by their meanings in the Original Languages, complementing the Definition/Lemma sections of BWS. But the Exegetical Guide may be a better tool for a (bible) word in its context.

2. Concepts and Terminology

Vocab from WordNet  -->  link to What is Wordnet because this is related to BSL

  • BSL foundation  --> link to What is Wordnet
  • Word Relationships  --> link to Glossary of Terms in Wordnet

Vocab from Logos and others

  • link to Types of Definition page in Wikipedia  (choice of 28 types)
  • link to Semantics in AYBD which wasn't found
  • link to Semantic Fallacies which wasn't found

Logos Reading List

  • link to BWS Linguistics  which talks about the dangers of Word Study

3. How do I open Bible Word Study

4. How do I specify the Parameters of my Study

    Type a concept name in to the box and then Navigate.

5. What Info does the BSL give me?

     Ahhh, yes, I was wondering what this tool gave me that was different to Wordnet.

    1. It appears that I'm studying Concepts and not bible words

    4. the Concept under study is defined

    5. a list of original language words = bible words?

    7 & 8  a hierarchy of concepts and their relationships

    Now why didn't Martha put this section at the beginning when i could have grasped what BSL was all about without the distraction of Wordnet!

    Now what does concepts mean again - is it somewhere in the Wikipedia Definitions page?

 

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 27489
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 5 2012 11:25 PM

Dave Hooton:
3. How do I open Bible Word Study

Definitely a typo here.Big Smile

Dave Hooton:

  • link to Semantics in AYBD which wasn't found
  • link to Semantic Fallacies which wasn't found
  • I'll check the links - I'd swear I'd selected wiki format from the panel menu ... either a user error or bug.

    -------------------

    Okay, I think I've got it right. Thanks for keeping pushing.

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

    Posts 113
    LogosEmployee

    As a brief reply to this thread, while English WordNet has provided theoretical foundations for Bible Sense Lexicon, where we believed the Hebrew and/or Greek hierarchy to be different we have not followed English WordNet (the same is true of definitions). Probably the best place to see this is in the case of the animal hierarchy, though there are a good number of other examples.  English WordNet's hierarchy is thoroughly biological. Since we didn't think this fit the linguistic categories of an ancient speaker of Hebrew and/or Greek, we built our a hierarchy based on what we believed to be categories found in the texts of the Old and New Testament. So, while there is a relationship between BSL and WordNet, it is not entirely accurate to say that BSL is WordNet.

    Posts 27489
    Forum MVP
    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2012 12:28 PM

    Thanks - I'll make sure that is noted.

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

    Posts 777
    LogosEmployee
    Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2012 2:38 PM

    Jeremy Thompson:

    As a brief reply to this thread, while English WordNet has provided theoretical foundations for Bible Sense Lexicon, where we believed the Hebrew and/or Greek hierarchy to be different we have not followed English WordNet (the same is true of definitions). Probably the best place to see this is in the case of the animal hierarchy, though there are a good number of other examples.  English WordNet's hierarchy is thoroughly biological. Since we didn't think this fit the linguistic categories of an ancient speaker of Hebrew and/or Greek, we built our a hierarchy based on what we believed to be categories found in the texts of the Old and New Testament. So, while there is a relationship between BSL and WordNet, it is not entirely accurate to say that BSL is WordNet.

    A couple more relevant points about BSL and its relationship to WordNet (or not):

    • we've taken an approach that is similar to the WordNet Project, in that we're organizing around senses (not words). We've only used a relatively small portion of their data, however. Wordnet 3.0 has some 117k senses: we're only using ~5500 for the nominal senses, and i expect the numbers to be comparable small for verbs, adjectives, and adverbs.
    • while WordNet is monolingual (English), BSL is deliberately cross-lingual: we've incorporated senses from across the Biblical languages and integrated them together (while still creating language-specific senses when necessary).
    • we've used WordNet data directly to bootstrap our semantic lexicon, but (as Jeremy notes) we haven't been limited by it, instead choosing to create our own sense and relationships when appropriate
      • we've eliminated the thousands of WordNet senses that aren't relevant to Biblical senses, only keeping those that serve to organize the (typically upper portions of the) hierarchy. Less than 10% of our noun senses are English-only.
    • WordNet itself is "only" a lexicon: BSL is both a lexicon and the annotation of the Biblical corpus with those senses

    I'd say WordNet provides important background information for understanding BSL, but they're distinct in their scope and purposes.

    I also think it's worth including in the wiki that you can see the senses in the interlinear ribbon: that may be easier for some folks than the Exegetical Guide.

    Posts 25189
    Forum MVP
    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2012 2:45 PM

    Sean Boisen:

    I'd say WordNet provides important background information for understanding BSL, but they're distinct in their scope and purposes.

    I also think it's worth including in the wiki that you can see the senses in the interlinear ribbon: that may be easier for some folks than the Exegetical Guide.

    Thanks Sean and Jeremy.

    It's certainly important to acknowledge the contribution of WordNet to BSL.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 10 & Android 8

    Posts 27489
    Forum MVP
    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 6 2012 9:06 PM

    Sean Boisen:
    I also think it's worth including in the wiki that you can see the senses in the interlinear ribbon: that may be easier for some folks than the Exegetical Guide.

    I've now included this - as I rarely use interlinears, I'd not found this feature. What I'm really looking forward to is the search on the BSL.

    I think I've got things appropriately qualified now - but feel free to continue to clarify and make suggestions so that Logos users learn to use this powerful tool (correctly, evenWink).

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

    Posts 25189
    Forum MVP
    Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 18 2012 8:18 PM

    Martha

    Finally got got around to doing another review, and it is much better.

    Dave
    ===

    Windows 10 & Android 8

    Posts 27489
    Forum MVP
    MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 19 2012 2:17 AM

    Thanks Dave

    Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

    Page 1 of 1 (20 items) | RSS