How to re-write and release a replacement product.

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Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 12:42 PM

Ken Avery:
Sending the customer on a scavenger hunt to find what has, has not and will not be implemented is not the correct answer; in other words if no one finds the mistakes then they must not be mistakes?

As Bob has said before, they implemented features that were used by 90% of the users before release.  If no one misses a feature, then I'm fine with the decision to not implement it.   I agree that better documentation would be nice.  However, Sean asked what features you personally are missing...he didn't ask you to go find all the features that might possibly be missing.

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Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 12:49 PM
Mark Barnes:

Ken,

But you seem to be under the mistaken impression that design and functionality descions made in the late 1980s must all be adhered to today.

I made my position clear; just because you change development environments does not mean the requirements have changed; I usually don't teach SW development courses; though, it looks like it is time, class is in session.

There are two major concepts when developing SW, WHAT and HOW:

  1. WHAT - ths is what you want; in other words, requirements.
  2. HOW - this is how you implement WHAT you want

The non-technical discussion we are having is mixing these two concepts as if they are one, not true and mixing them only leads to really bad SW implementations.

Mark Barnes:
Logos 1, for example, allowed users to install the software using floppy discs. That functionality was removed in Logos 3. A poor decision? No, of course, not. It was an old requirement that was getting in the way of progress. If you like Logos 3, it's because Logos through away the book when they designed Logos 2, and did it again when they designed Logos 3. That's how Logos works, and partly what makes it great.

This is a great example of a non-software person (I hope) not understanding the difference between WHAT and HOW; the WHAT is the requirement to be able to install the Software and the HOW is installing from floppy disks that was then implemented using CD/CVD ... etc.

Notice the requirement that the SW must be installable did not go away!

 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 12:59 PM

Ken Avery:
just because you change development environments does not mean the requirements have changed;

exactly what requirements are you referring to when you say L4 changes or does not meet them? are you referring to the overhaul of the UI or are you referring to L3 functionality that is not currently present in L4?

Just out of curiosity what SW did you work on in the past?

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:01 PM

Todd Phillips:

As Bob has said before, they implemented features that were used by 90% of the users before release.  If no one misses a feature, then I'm fine with the decision to not implement it.   I agree that better documentation would be nice.  However, Sean asked what features you personally are missing...he didn't ask you to go find all the features that might possibly be missing.

Really 90%?

I will be blunt; the way it looks to me is that Logs 4 was not scoped out properly and missed the schedule big time and was released as a product when it was still in developemnt to generate a little income to keep the project going.

If the Logos users, the customer, is good with this then I am also good with this; I love to see products re-written to take advantage of the new inovations and clean up bad code.

My issue is that the front page of the Logos web site is advertising a half baked product as an upgrade; I am sure the developers are working night and day to get this finished; my guess, it will be another 6 months before Logos 4 is a ligitimate replacement for Logos 3 (unless you only use basic functionality)

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:06 PM

Ken Avery:
I will be blunt; the way it looks to me is that Logs 4 was not scoped out properly and missed the schedule big time and was released as a product when it was still in developemnt to generate a little income to keep the project going.

I posted these on another thread when I meant to post them here.  Bob's comments on the status of Logos 4:

Performance issues: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/4318/35672.aspx#35672

Feature inclusion: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3804/29352.aspx#29352 <- Note this one especially, regarding schedule.

And I think this twitter post gives insight on Bob's view of software release (actually, the article he links to does):

http://twitter.com/BobPritchett/status/4864315623

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Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:10 PM

Ken Avery:

Todd Phillips:

As Bob has said before, they implemented features that were used by 90% of the users before release.  If no one misses a feature, then I'm fine with the decision to not implement it.   I agree that better documentation would be nice.  However, Sean asked what features you personally are missing...he didn't ask you to go find all the features that might possibly be missing.

Really 90%?

I will be blunt; the way it looks to me is that Logs 4 was not scoped out properly and missed the schedule big time and was released as a product when it was still in developemnt to generate a little income to keep the project going.

If the Logos users, the customer, is good with this then I am also good with this; I love to see products re-written to take advantage of the new inovations and clean up bad code.

My issue is that the front page of the Logos web site is advertising a half baked product as an upgrade; I am sure the developers are working night and day to get this finished; my guess, it will be another 6 months before Logos 4 is a ligitimate replacement for Logos 3 (unless you only use basic functionality)

Since you find Logos 4 an illegitimate replacement for Logos 3, I believe Logos will graciously grant you a refund for whatever amount for Logos 4 you have already expended. I cannot fathom Bob would want you to utilize any Logos product you find to be illegitimate, half-baked and just downright unsatisfactory. Smile

Edited to add directed quotes...

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Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:14 PM

Ken Avery:
Really 90%?

Yulp, that's what's been said. For instance the Verse lists, which is the feature I miss the most, was being used by 10% of the users. I think part of the problem with L3 was that it was great if you new were to find things but there were so many icons and menus unless you went searching you didn't know it was there.

Ken Avery:
I will be blunt; the way it looks to me is that Logs 4 was not scoped out properly and missed the schedule big time and was released as a product when it was still in developemnt to generate a little income to keep the project going.

I'm sure the realities of running a company factored into the scheduled release of L4. I doubt it's possible for them not to factor in.

Ken Avery:
My issue is that the front page of the Logos web site is advertising a half baked product as an upgrade;

"half baked" is a personal opinion. My L4 runs great and does almost everything I need it to do. I don't care about it being able to do the stuff I don't need it to do. I'm sure they could put on their front page, "some may consider this program half baked, but we think its really good." For some reason I think the advertising department might view that as a bad idea.

 

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:16 PM

My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.

I get so frustrated because it took years to get Logos the way I want it and now it is all out the window! 

 

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:17 PM

Philip Spitzer:
Well, I'm no programmer, but I hope they don't tie Logos down to the limitations of decades old hardware but instead write the program to take advantage of today and tomorrow's hardware advantages.

Strangely we are in a weird time as the hardware of "today and tomorrow" is actually becomeing less capable and more capable at the same time. Netbooks are less capable and they are selling like crazy. But many struggle to run Logos 4 on them. I know some of you are perfectly happy with it. But I would not want to run it on one as my expectations are much higher.

I think the original writer was spot on. Logos 4 is not ready yet. Will be. But it is a beta since features are designed to be released very soon but are not yet in the software. This is by definition a beta. Sorry. I know people don't like it when user criticize the software, but it is the opinion of many very loyal and faithful customers including myself.  One day it will be great. But not yet.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:19 PM

Ken Avery:

My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.

I get so frustrated because it took years to get Logos the way I want it and now it is all out the window! 

That's where I personally have benefited. I too spent a lot of time getting L3 the way I like it. With L4 it seems so much easier to make into something useful. I can see where Key Linking could be viewed as a step backwards though. For the most part prioritizing has worked for me.

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:28 PM

Debra W Bouey:

Since you find Logos 4 an illegitimate replacement for Logos 3, I believe Logos will graciously grant you a refund for whatever amount for Logos 4 you have already expended. I cannot fathom Bob would want you to utilize any Logos product you find to be illegitimate, half-baked and just downright unsatisfactory. Smile

Thanks for you opinion; one, I am using the new content in Logos 3 (been a user for many years) that was sold under the Logos 4 purchase. I am glade all the people who only use the eye candy are happy.

Having been a customer for many years; I believe in Logos and enjoy the product, my comments are being made out of concern for the product I love and use for hours every day and have been using every day for years.

Evidently, my standards are much higher than yours and I believe Logos can do a better job; as a matter of fact, I expect Logos to do a better job and I am not going to suggar coat it.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:35 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
But it is a beta since features are designed to be released very soon but are not yet in the software. This is by definition a beta.

If you can give me a reference for your definition of beta, then I will accept your argument.  Smile

Most definitions of beta I work with include: the feature list is frozen (i.e., it's feature complete according to the release plans of the developer) and the software is still untested and buggy.  Planned features may be added in the next version.  Now if it was still exceedingly buggy, then calling it beta might have more merit.  Calling it beta implies that it is buggy, but design decisions aren't equivalent to bugs.  It's better just to say that features are missing.

 

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Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:36 PM

Sean Boisen:
Instead, i'd like to respectfully turn this around and invite you to supply your chart or list indicating what L3 does that you can't get L4 to do.

Don't have a chart, but how about this list.

1. Sentence diagrams

2. Open and move about quickly and smoothly - it is better than it was, but still very slow

3. Keep prayer lists

4. Personal book builder files

You see where this is going.  I could give you the same answer many give. Look at the missing feature list. They are coming. The point is that they are not in the initial release so the "upgrade" as LOGOS not me calls it is less functional in some ways that the previous version.  Therefore it is less of a program by defintion. It has some new features. Great! I love them. But I also love some of the missing features.

And by calling it Logos 4 they are signaling what every computer users assumes that means. This is a newer and better version.  So when we open it and find that it is not better in a few areas, there is disappointment. And when a program is slower than the previous version in most ways except for one, there is disappointment. And saying, then go back to the old one is not a good solution for Logos as a company and me as a user. It leaves me feeling less satisfied with the product and therefore the company.

Someone here compared Logos 4 to Vista. It is their Vista in that they called it an upgrade when it was in many ways, but was just not ready. Logos 4.1 will hopefully be the Windows 7 of Logos Bible Software.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:36 PM

Ken Avery:
I am glade all the people who only use the eye candy are happy.

Well, I would certainly disagree that eye candy is the only area L4 is superior in. There are vast improvements in some areas of functionality, with a couple backward steps as well. I refuse to define L4 by only the backward steps without also taking into consideration the forward movement.

Ken Avery:
Having been a customer for many years; I believe in Logos and enjoy the product, my comments are being made out of concern for the product I love and use for hours every day and have been using every day for years.

I don't doubt this in the least.

Ken Avery:
Evidently, my standards are much higher than yours..

I wouldn't call them standards so much as preferences and requirements, and I wouldn't call them higher so much as different.

Ken Avery:
I believe Logos can do a better job; as a matter of fact, I expect Logos to do a better job and I am not going to suggar coat it.

No one wants Logos 4 to succeed more then the Logos employees, their spouses and the mouths of their children Big Smile

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:39 PM

Todd Phillips:
Most definitions of beta I work with include: the feature list is frozen (i.e., it's feature complete according to the release plans of the developer) and the software is still untested and buggy.  Planned features may be added in the next version.  Now if it was still exceedingly buggy, then calling it beta might have more merit.  Calling it beta implies that it is buggy, but design decisions aren't equivalent to bugs.  It's better just to say that features are missing.

Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?

If not, then maybe beta is not the term you would us. Fine. But it is not a fully featured upgrade. Any piece of software that has a "missing features" page is not finished. Now if these were new features that they have not yet implemented yet, then I would be on the other side of the argument.

We all know that they pushed it out to get it in before the Christmas deadline. But I think this was a mistake for upgraders. Not a problem for new users since they cannot miss features they've never used.

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:40 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

Philip Spitzer:
Well, I'm no programmer, but I hope they don't tie Logos down to the limitations of decades old hardware but instead write the program to take advantage of today and tomorrow's hardware advantages.

Strangely we are in a weird time as the hardware of "today and tomorrow" is actually becomeing less capable and more capable at the same time. Netbooks are less capable and they are selling like crazy. But many struggle to run Logos 4 on them. I know some of you are perfectly happy with it. But I would not want to run it on one as my expectations are much higher.

I think the original writer was spot on. Logos 4 is not ready yet. Will be. But it is a beta since features are designed to be released very soon but are not yet in the software. This is by definition a beta. Sorry. I know people don't like it when user criticize the software, but it is the opinion of many very loyal and faithful customers including myself.  One day it will be great. But not yet.

Aye, regarding the maturing of Logos 4, for sure ... but I understood that to a degree at least before I made the decision to purchase my upgrade. I read through the missing list, to be sure. I admit to bewilderment when my maiden Logos 4 home screen displayed itself after an almost all-nighter of downloading and indexing (once the indexing started, I lapsed into a slumber 'til dawn's early light, or thereabouts). Moreover, L-4 initially sent me screaming back to the safe haven of my Libronix 3, where I'd learned long ago to dig deep to find and figure out what I needed to more efficiently get it done. I have a plethora of specialized collections, workspaces and custom toolbars and everything was just so. Logos 4 was and is so unlike its Libronix 3 counterpart.

However, L-4 is growing on me more and more, especially over the last week or so and I kinda like it. I've had a spot more time to dive into its depths over the long holiday weekend. I think I first stopped grousing about and fighting it and started to work with L-4 more so after watching an off-site video a fellow Logos user put together showing how to make some of the "old" things "new", in a manner of speaking.

I don't like change when I'm in midst of making the transition, I don't like it atall, not one bit (so bears my beloved hubby witness over recent weeks Wink)! I can't go back and recapture all those hours back in the 1980's I spent so carefully writing those simple little DOS ditties in Basic and getting everything just so on my old 8088 and 286 systems (no programmer, me, just a semi-retired clinical and research psych) any more than I can recapture all the time I spent carefully crafting and personalizing those custom workspaces and toolbars, keylinks, collections and on and on in Libronix 3.

I'm going to lose some time I can't recapture, it's always that way with a paradigm shift. Sometimes forwarding thinking dictates it ... but I still don't like change, never have, never will, but I manage to adapt ... sooner or later! Smile

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Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:43 PM

Ken Avery:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.

Ken...

this is NOT to bait you but to point out something (not necessarily to you) but you just said a mouthful...

Does anyone remember their first reaction to the "time-consuming-amazing-that-it-had-to-be-done" ordeal that was known as keylinking?

the first time I saw the directions I was blown away that this was necessary...not only on first install...but when L3 convientely forgot my settings and I had to start all over again... Big Smile

L4 is different to be sure...the same functionality is not there...(I thought that it might be in the future; but don't quote me) but it does work for many users without the intense keylinking ceremony before beginning.. Big Smile

And yes...we are all a little frustrated by out pet-features that either aren't there....or are different, but we got used to how 3 did things....and in time...we will get used to 4....right?

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2704
DominicM | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:45 PM

Ken

if you hate your L4 use your 28 day money back offer, and stick with L3, no one is holding a gun to your head and saying use L4

I understand where you are coming from being a developer with over 25 years experience, but respectfully disagree with your summary.

Given that L4 was written from scratch, all new code, the initial release results are very encouraging (and worthy of release), yes theres a few things that need fixed/added (mainly power user stuff), and they will be added, but it was important to get the software out to the 95% that never use these tools.

Yes its a pain for us power users who have to wait for the extra bits to get coded, but the general (normal user) concencus is L4 is a winner, and worthy replacement. 

 

Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:50 PM

David Oxtoby:
I'm surprised as to how negative a lot of the comments are on these forums, L3 is still available and L4 is coming on leaps and bounds,  no-one is forcing anyone to upgrade and Logos have made it clear what stage L4 is at, so i think a bit less moaning and a lot more praise.

I'm surprised at how many are willing to give a pass on the missing features in a "finished" product that is being charged for.  Define "leaps and bounds".  And this line about no one is forcing anyone to upgrade is specious. Sounds good. But I am not concerned for those who have not yet upgraded but those who have not being told clearly and up front that this was not fully complete. There was a high amount of praise and a huge amount of excitement. I took part in it blogging and posting on twitter about it. But now wish I had not.  I knew about it as a beta tester but then the more I realized what was happening to people who paid for an upgrade, I feel bad for them. They expect better and many are getting less that expected.

Logos did not make it clear. Beta testers knew clearly what was up. But we were not paying 70 bucks to get a product that has less than the previous.  So I post only to push this company, one of my favorites, to take a close look at what they are doing and reconsider doing it in the future. I have praised what was praiseworthy but I would nto call what I and many others are doing as moaning. Rather some careful warning to those who might come expecting what was a fair expectation. In June 2010 that expectation will likely be met, I hope. But it is not going to be now.

Finally I will end with praise. Kudos to Logos for not shutting people like me up. They are a fair company and care about their users. That is why I trust that they will get this right eventually!!

Posts 294
Debra W Bouey | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:53 PM

Ken Avery:

Debra W Bouey:

Since you find Logos 4 an illegitimate replacement for Logos 3, I believe Logos will graciously grant you a refund for whatever amount for Logos 4 you have already expended. I cannot fathom Bob would want you to utilize any Logos product you find to be illegitimate, half-baked and just downright unsatisfactory. Smile

Thanks for you opinion; one, I am using the new content in Logos 3 (been a user for many years) that was sold under the Logos 4 purchase. I am glade all the people who only use the eye candy are happy.

Having been a customer for many years; I believe in Logos and enjoy the product, my comments are being made out of concern for the product I love and use for hours every day and have been using every day for years.

Evidently, my standards are much higher than yours and I believe Logos can do a better job; as a matter of fact, I expect Logos to do a better job and I am not going to suggar coat it.

No one is asking you to sugar coat anything. Grouse about here all you like, Bob reads every post, so he'll see yours as well. The bottom line here still remains the fact if you're so displeased with Logos 4 as to find it unable to meet your needs, you are free to get a full refund for making the leap to L-4 to begin with. That is the baseline here, is it not? So you've only really lost the time it took you to download and index it, coupled with whatever time you've worked with it to this point, which is unfortunate, of course.

All of that notwithstanding, you can, after all, should you so choose, prevent yourself from losing anymore time with L-4, a new software release from Logos you've already deemed unsuitable, by simply calling and requesting a refund.

If you want to vent, well, I reckon you're obviously free to do that in this forum as well ... just don't expect us to bow at your superior footstool without expressing ourselves as well, kind sir.

 

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