How to re-write and release a replacement product.

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This post has 174 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:53 PM

DominicM:
Given that L4 was written from scratch, all new code, the initial release results are very encouraging (and worthy of release), yes theres a few things that need fixed/added (mainly power user stuff), and they will be added, but it was important to get the software out to the 95% that never use these tools.

It is not a 1.0 release. Look at the title. It is Logos 4.0. Rewriting it from scratch and leaving out features may make it a different product, but if they want the benefit of the doubt for being a 1.0 they should call it a 1.0. Change the name and call it Logos Ebook System 1.0 or something. But if you call it Logos 4.0 then you are signalling to your loyal and faithful customers that it is everything 3.0 was and more.

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:54 PM

Robert Pavich:
Does anyone remember their first reaction to the "time-consuming-amazing-that-it-had-to-be-done" ordeal that was known as keylinking?

No.

But, it's not that hard. It's accessible from the right click context menu of any resource....

 

Robert Pavich:
L4 is different to be sure...the same functionality is not there...(I thought that it might be in the future; but don't quote me) but it does work for many users without the intense keylinking ceremony before beginning.

Certain things simply don't work - phrases for example...

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:56 PM

Todd Phillips:
Most definitions of beta I work with include: the feature list is frozen (i.e., it's feature complete according to the release plans of the developer) and the software is still untested and buggy.  Planned features may be added in the next version.  Now if it was still exceedingly buggy, then calling it beta might have more merit.  Calling it beta implies that it is buggy, but design decisions aren't equivalent to bugs.  It's better just to say that features are missing.

I would add to this that from day one of the beta program we were told L4 would not have these features. Missing Features are determined by what we the users want. Release features are determined by what Logos has decided to give us. L4 was released with the features Logos decided to give us in L4. There are many practical factors that go into these decisions that exist within limits that our desires and dreams for the software do not.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:58 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?

FWIW: I do not find L4 excessively slow. Occasionally inconveniently slow, as every piece of software I have every owned has been from time to time, but not "excessively slow".

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 1:59 PM

Debra W Bouey:
If you want to vent, well, I reckon you're obviously free to do that in this forum as well ... just don't expect us to bow at your superior footstool without expressing ourselves as well, kind sir.

I don't believe Ken was expecting that at all, nor am I. So it was probably not a helpful comment. I am simply engaging in a friend debate and expressing my views. After all this is a forum and that is what one does in an online forum. Thanks for engaging in the debate.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:01 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?

 

Only if that was what defined the software but clearly....there are many users who have vastly different experiences....I'm one.

My L3 searches were MUCH slower than my L4 searches...

Do you rememember WHY we used collections (for the most part) in L3?

Because doing a search on even half of your library would take so long you'd never stand for it! Remember? So the solution was to "divide your library up into smaller chunks"

So..no...I wouldn't say that your experience of slow performance is indicative of being a "buggy piece of software"

(Not necessarily directed at you personally) And PS: anytime anyone wants to pretend like this never happened and use V3 UNTIL ALL OF THE FEATURES OF V4 ARE IN PLACE  can do so...right?

Nobody twists anyone's arm to use V4....V3 is still the same thing that it always was....a good bible software package....that didn't disappear

Just don't click the V4 icon until later in 2010 and you'll never know what's not there.... Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:02 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Kevin A. Purcell:
Would you call excessively slow performance a bug?

FWIW: I do not find L4 excessively slow. Occasionally inconveniently slow, as every piece of software I have every owned has been from time to time, but not "excessively slow".

I am aware that many are not having this problem. But after reading this forum you will notice that many are myself included. Reinstalling on a fresh install of Windows helped a lot. But not enough. BTW I am also having a problem with the Title bar being black instead of the normal windows color. This is a bug and it is known and hopefully will be fixed.

 

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:02 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Therefore it is less of a program by defintion. It has some new features. Great! I love them. But I also love some of the missing features.

Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:04 PM

Did I say "I hate Logos 4"?

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:12 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?

If only it was this simple

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:12 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
BTW I am also having a problem with the Title bar being black instead of the normal windows color. This is a bug and it is known and hopefully will be fixed.

ditto. I have the same problem.

Posts 2757
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:12 PM

Philip Spitzer:
Depends on how you add things up. If L3 is a 100, and L4 lacks 10 of what L3 does, you have 90. If L4 then adds to that 90 20 of what L3 wasn't you now have 110 and thus more of a program and not less. Yes, the dog is a math genius as well. Now no one is disputing the 10. The question is, how much to L4 add or improve that L3 missed?

This doesn't work. If it is missing something that many find valuable, to them you can add all the features in the world, but they will still miss the other feature.

For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.

I know - don't upgrade.  BTW that only makes the person saying seem insensitive and doesn't help the person it is being said to. We know this. I signed up to beta test Logos 4 and will do so for another 6 months. But if at that time it is not up to 3.0 standards I will remove it and not use it or recommend it. I fell pretty sure it will be by then.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:19 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
I know - don't upgrade.

I can't recall ever saying this, but then again enough people have that it would be hard to remember who has and who hasn't and I might have joined the choir and forgot.

EDIT: I WANT you to state your opinions and have this discussion. I want people looking to use L4 to have as much information about it as possible. I don't want you to get your refund, shut-up, and go away so that I can sing L4's praises. I want you to respectfully state your opinions (which I have always felt you have) and for me to respectfully state my opinions so that others can make the most informed decisions.

EDIT EDIT: Besides, Posting to this thread is helping me get above Thomas in the overall Post count Big Smile

Kevin A. Purcell:
For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.

Then the formula works different for you, L3 is 100, -50 for sentence diagramming is 50, + 20 takes you up to 70. what ever the values you place on things are up to you, but to simply leave the formula at L3 - what I miss I believe is short sighted. One should take into consideration how L4 can benefit them over L3. It may still end up being short but it should be considered none-the-less.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:21 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
I know - don't upgrade.  BTW that only makes the person saying seem insensitive and doesn't help the person it is being said to. We know this

No Kevin...it seems that not everyone does...

Personally, the last time I bought software that i didn't like (Office 2007) I paid for it...used it...didn't really like it...then I uninstalled it and used Open Office.

I didn't go onto the Microsoft forums and complain about how horriifying a product Office was...nor did I say how they should have left well enough alone so i'd like the program....i just chose to not use the product; as it didn't do what i wanted the way I wanted it....no biggie.

Saying "don't upgrade" or 'wait awhile before clicking the V4 icon" is NOT insensitive...I would have called it "a viable alternative to a big problem...." Big Smile 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:28 PM

Don't get me wrong I am all for progress and a new and better Logos 4; I said my initial impression is that Logos 4 is not ready to replace Logos 3. As far as the buisness decission to ship early and pay for development; I am fine with that, by all means, pay the bills.

Logos has an excellent reputaion and I purchased the product to help keep things going and the price of the additional content may never be this low again, that make this "upgrade" worth it!

As far as Logos 4 goes; I believe the re-write is well worth the investment; my only complaints are concerning the company communications and would like to know more about what will be ready, when it will  be ready and if anything is going to be left out. I would like this information to be a link that is easy to find.

 

Posts 139
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:29 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.

Understood: everybody has their own set of important features.

I too hope (and expect) overall performance will continue to improve. According to the missing features list, sentence diagramming is slated for 2Q 2010.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:30 PM

Ken Avery:
As far as Logos 4 goes; I believe the re-write is well worth the investment; my only complaints are concerning the company communications and would like to know more about what will be ready, when it will  be ready and if anything is going to be left out. I would like this information to be a link that is easy to find.

a reasonable request.

Posts 273
Ken Avery | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:36 PM

Sean Boisen:

Kevin A. Purcell:

For me those features are sentence diagramming and overall program performance. Until it gets those two things back it will be less useful to me.

Understood: everybody has their own set of important features.

I too hope (and expect) overall performance will continue to improve. According to the missing features list, sentence diagramming is slated for 2Q 2010.

What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?

Posts 139
Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:39 PM

Ken Avery:
My biggest pet peve right now is "Key Linking" or whatever is going to replace it and the ability to customize Logos; I spent a long time getting Logos the way I want it and don't know where to start to get the equivalent feature/functionality.

Here we changed functionality to try to hit a better sweet spot for most of our users. Rather than detailed keylinking, in L4 you prioritize resources. There's additional information and discussion (and some similar complaints) about keylinking on these threads:

As mentioned in these threads, some power users aren't happy with this change because they have less fine-grained control. What L4 has gained in my view (and some others agree) is less fussing about, and more intuitive behavior.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 1 2009 2:39 PM

Ken Avery:
What about keylinking - I hated it when it first came out and ended up depending on it after getting everything set up - is there something that replaces it?

Have you prioritized any of your resources?

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