What's the deal with Rahab? (not the prositute)

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This post has 30 Replies | 3 Followers

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Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 6:10 AM

"So the emphasis is more on God defeating the enemy as opposed to God being in a "primordial battle with the forces of chaos" as mentioned in FSB (as per the original post)"


John Day, in God's Conflict with the Dragon and the Sea brings in several examples of where the Old Testament "historicizes" the myth, by attributing or comparing one of its enemies to Leviathan/Rahab/the dragon.


As for Revelation, it's heavily drawing on this old Chaoskampf imagery. When discussing this motif in class, Mark Smith actually singled out Revelation as the most thorough usage of the old Chaoskampf/dragon imagery in the Bible.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 6:10 AM

George Somsel:
On the contrary, the dragon and sea monster in Revelation are based on the old monsters of ancient mythology previously detailed by Graham and Rosie

Hi George, I am going to have to disagree with you.  I don't have my stuff in front of me, but there is also good evidence that this sea monster is a symbol for Rome.

Posts 1124
Ben | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 6:35 AM

You're confusing the source of the symbol with what it symbolizes, and reading a bit too narrowly.  Revelation is another example of historicization of the myth. Now Rome is God's primordial enemy. 

 

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 6:51 AM

George's book is up in Rosie's area if you want to click on it (for Logos.com).  I just bought it (thanks Rosie and George!).

I clearly remember when I first encountered the surprise that Lyle expresses. On the one hand, it's like there's another world the church doesn't deal with (huh?).

 But on the other, the OT offers a whole world of ancient realities that God dealt with, and the Israelites had no choice but to deal with. Imagine trying to lead a large number of YHWH followers with these fears in the background. Very fascinating.  Here in Sedona, many folks see tremendous power in special rocks, etc so it's easy to understand Jeremiah trying to convince the rural Israelites that objects don't have power.

On Rev, I agree with George but probably for 'bad' reasons; the greek patterns for chapters 5-18 most match the late 1stc bce and not the late 1st ce, with a 'wrapper' that DOES match the late 1stc ce (chaps 1-4, 19-22). I'd bet it's not by accident the early church, being greek speakers, saw the same patterns and wondered concerning its source.  Much later, Origen returned for another 'greek' analysis.


Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 7:30 AM

tom:
Hi George, I am going to have to disagree with you.  I don't have my stuff in front of me, but there is also good evidence that this sea monster is a symbol for Rome

No, it's not Rome, at least not specifically.  It represents all opposition to God and human self-assertion.  This includes Rome but is not specifically restricted to Rome.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 18075
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 1:41 PM

DMB:
George's book

I did a double take there! For a minute I was thinking George's Revelation commentary was done already and available from Logos. Whew! Good thing I reread the sentence. Now I realize you were talking about the book by Gunkel that George (and I) recommended.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 12 2012 11:18 PM

All of which reminds me that we need Religion and Its Monsters by Timothy K. Beal is a fun read on the subject that should be in Logos or Vyrso.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1
Joshua Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2016 8:59 PM

The serpent of creation? Rahab has passed through the sands of time representing Egypt that "She shall be the most devastated of lands, and her cities shall be the most desolate of all." Ezekiel 30: 7.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 20 2016 9:37 PM

Welcome to the forums. You've revived a 4 year old thread - anything you want to know or just commenting on a topic of interest?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1792
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 21 2016 1:15 PM

This thread makes me sad because Rosie no longer comes out to play.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 789
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 21 2016 2:38 PM

Since the thread has been resurrected, for anyone reading it for the first time like I just did and who may be interested in the Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, the book is now available as part of several base packages (that is how I eventually got it after it had been on my wishlist for a good while).

https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_13.0.23/dictionary-of-deities-and-demons-in-the-bible.

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