Disappointed - Timeline

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Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 15 2012 4:00 PM

Dominick Sela:

Maybe there is a different vision of Logos than you have - this is a library not a magisterium.  If you are worried about interpretations that you disagree with or are "too far" from what you or anyone disagrees with, as related to the time line, couldn't the same be said for Scripture interpretations, commentaries, devotionals, dictionaries, manuscripts, encyclopedias, magazines, and more?

That's why it's a library not a single authority - even a Catholic scholar wants to have access to ALL what has been written on the subject. I suspect many people here feel the same, I know I do.

Yes

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 2:16 AM

Dominick Sela:

Patrick S.:
Now I start to get really worried. In my opinion there has to be some sort of editorial discernment and discrimination.

Maybe there is a different vision of Logos than you have - this is a library not a magisterium.  If you are worried about interpretations that you disagree with or are "too far" from what you or anyone disagrees with, as related to the time line, couldn't the same be said for Scripture interpretations, commentaries, devotionals, dictionaries, manuscripts, encyclopedias, magazines, and more?

That's why it's a library not a single authority - even a Catholic scholar wants to have access to ALL what has been written on the subject. I suspect many people here feel the same, I know I do.

I believe you are extrapolating past what I was saying, putting words in my mouth I did not say, and missing my key point. I am not talking about interpretations as to theology e.g. is Transubstantiation true, or does one (mainline) denomination hold all Christian truth — no, not at all.

I am talking about Logos exercising some 'editorial judgement' as to which books are considered with respect to pulling dates from them to populate the timeline. Currently (as I read it) they have some (and I quote) "automatic [...] algorithm" pulling dates from books, and the source of books are "resources in the Logos library (not just your library, but all Logos books)"  and they are "not making an editorial choice". Put together that seems to me to be a recipe for diluted value.

Re: your "this is a library",  well, there are libraries, and there are libraries, and then there are.... libraries. What I bought into with Logos, was advertised as, and I believe should be, a (mainstream) Christian, scholarly library.

That means:

Christian = well it isn't espousing Islam, or Hinduism or any other faith. And it makes the statement that Christianity in the person of Jesus is the one and only way to be saved (restored to relationship with God). If it talks about other religions it does so in comparative religion texts, written by Christians, pointing out (dare I say it in these post-modern times) their errors. This does not mean that we should be taking an arrogant, lord it over you, approach to other religions. I believe we have a clear role model from the founder of our faith with respect to humbleness. But we still hold that Jesus is the one and only way.

Scholarly = well this could be open to interpretation, but as a famous lawyer once said "I know it when I see it", and this....

ain't scholarly. This is a Vyrso title. The reason I stopped buying from Vyrso (Bob you listening?) was because — automatically — all Vyrso titles were added to my Logos (scholarly) library. Which just seems silly to me. I have a paper (scholarly) Christian library at home, I wouldn't put titles like the above in that library. That's not saying the title is intrinsically bad, no, just inappropriate for a scholarly Christian library.

And inappropriate is the word I would use for Logos just stuffing the timeline with dates from every book in the Logos library that has dates in it, just for the sake of padding out the timeline — if that is, in fact, what they are doing. Also, given that they say that they use books from user's libraries and that we now have wonderful (cough) 'social' features in Logos does that mean I am going to see in my biblical, Christian, scholarly Logos timeline dates from books in other Logos users' libraries?? Saints preserve us!

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 2:21 AM

tom:

Dominick Sela:

Maybe there is a different vision of Logos than you have - this is a library not a magisterium.  If you are worried about interpretations that you disagree with or are "too far" from what you or anyone disagrees with, as related to the time line, couldn't the same be said for Scripture interpretations, commentaries, devotionals, dictionaries, manuscripts, encyclopedias, magazines, and more?

That's why it's a library not a single authority - even a Catholic scholar wants to have access to ALL what has been written on the subject. I suspect many people here feel the same, I know I do.

Yes

Nice - just a shame though that Dominick didn't actually address what I said and put words in my mouth that I didn't say. You should perhaps consider that before 'approving' what someone says.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 3:38 AM

Patrick S.:

tom:

Dominick Sela:

Maybe there is a different vision of Logos than you have - this is a library not a magisterium.  If you are worried about interpretations that you disagree with or are "too far" from what you or anyone disagrees with, as related to the time line, couldn't the same be said for Scripture interpretations, commentaries, devotionals, dictionaries, manuscripts, encyclopedias, magazines, and more?

That's why it's a library not a single authority - even a Catholic scholar wants to have access to ALL what has been written on the subject. I suspect many people here feel the same, I know I do.

Yes

Nice - just a shame though that Dominick didn't actually address what I said and put words in my mouth that I didn't say. You should perhaps consider that before 'approving' what someone says.

You might think Dominick and/or my thought(s) was/were shame thought(s), but I agree completely with Dominick said.  

I am not sure how Dominick put words in your mouth because you said:

Patrick S.:
So Logos is going to start populating this with dates from all sorts of non-Christian books, even books antithetical to (mainstream) Christianity. Are we going to see dates from the 'prophet' Joseph Smith (e.g. the tribe of whatever coming to America) what about the so-called 'prophet' Mohammed? Are dates from these going to be put into the timeline simply because there are dates in books about them in the Logos library?

and

Patrick S.:
Now I start to get really worried. In my opinion there has to be some sort of editorial discernment and discrimination. What if there was a book in the Logos library with the title 'Horrendous Heresies and Salacious Sects' written to disprove and counter said errors. What if that book was full of dates related to junk spewed out by these heresies and sects — are they going to go into the timeline? How will they be presented — as real dates??

and

Patrick S.:
The Catholic church has a function for 'vetting' books — Imprimatur which means 'let it be printed' — perhaps something similar should be exercised here.

I want every date in the timeline.  I do not want any censorship (vetting/ or 'editorial discernment and discrimination') of the information.

 

 

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 4:32 AM

tom:

I do not want any censorship (venting/ or 'editorial discernment and discrimination') of the information.

And I could say that he, and then you, have completely missed the principle of what I was saying and instead have latched onto the statement of "Catholic church has a function for 'vetting' books — Imprimatur" and like Paul Revere you are both on your horses yelling "the catholics are coming, the catholics are coming" — I'm not Catholic BTW. The principle of what I was saying is that Logos should a) not just use some computer algorithm to blindly pull out dates and b) they should not just blindly pull dates from every single book in the Logos library. There should be some thinking behind it, some logic, some discernment.

I then gave some examples.

They've already got what I consider to be junk in there — where will it end?

 

tom:

I want every date in the timeline.

Be careful of what you wish for.

Also if you want every unconsidered, unrelated and unmeaningful date in the timeline then I want Logos not to do so until they provide some way to filter out that unconsidered, unrelated and unmeaningful data.

 

p.s. and it's "vetting" not "venting", you used the wrong word when you quoted me. 'Vetting' is what should be done judiciously by Logos, 'venting' is what I am doing now.

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 468
BKMitchell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 5:24 AM

Hello Patrick, 

Patrick S.:
 inappropriate is the word I would use for Logos just stuffing the timeline with dates from every book in the Logos library that has dates in it, just for the sake of padding out the timeline — if that is, in fact, what they are doing.

You bring up some interesting points and valid concerns. I haven't played with the timeline much in Logos, but I also hope that each user can have the ability to configure it for his/her personal use.  

 

Patrick S.:
a (mainstream) Christian, scholarly library

I am not sure how you go about defining mainstream Christian, but I would think a mainstream library(of any sort) should as a matter of principle differ from a Scholarly one. 

The German Bible Society Student Edition, is a library or collection of resources that I consider to be scholarly, but would  any of the resources of that collection be found in a mainstream layman's library?  If, your answer is yes, then Christians where you live are lot better equipped and informed than Christians where I live are. Of, course this is also based on my assumption that the library mention above is in fact a scholarly one.

Grace and Peace

חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי

Posts 5257
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 5:27 AM

Patrick S.:
This is a Vyrso title. The reason I stopped buying from Vyrso (Bob you listening?) was because — automatically — all Vyrso titles were added to my Logos (scholarly) library. Which just seems silly to me.

Patrick I appreciate you concern in terms of this sort of book.  I can't answer for Logos and so we will need clarification from them.  My hope would be that since these are of a different type of book i.e. e-book not logos, then they would not be considered  as a source of information for the timeline.

If these sort of Vyrso books do interest one from a reading for pleasure perspective but you don't want it to be a part of you main Logos Christian scholarly library then the simple work around it to create a second account and only purchase these type of books under the second account.    One can then use the Vyrso app using this secondary account to access and read these books on a mobile device.

Don't wipe out Vyrso just because of these books,  there are still a lot of useful books that fit into a scholarly christian library.  (What we do though need to take Bob and Vyrso to task on is putting books that are heavily reliant on scripture reference in Vyrso format.  These don't nicely  convert scripture references and so often point to the wrong bible reference unless the full bible reference is spelled out.  This leaves Vyrso in a position where there advertising is misleading because the books are not up to the standard that Vyrso advertising claims.)

Back to your original concern I think you are raising a fair point in terms of Vyrso books.  Giving the level of tagging involved though I don't think this is a fully automatic process.  Vyrso books are evidence in themselves that automatic tagging can only work to a certain extent.  For the timeline to work correctly I would think it would involve manual intervention and thus some level of vetoing on Logos behalf i.e. I don't think dates in Amish Romance Novels will make it into the timeline - but I don't work for Logos so maybe I am wrong.  Only they can truly answer that.  I think though if a title is of type:Logos (as opposed to e-book or PB) then its fair game to include in the timeline.

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 6:07 AM

interesting thread.

I am also disappointed with the timeline feature. I found it bloated with duplicate, unrelated and unnecessary (to the user) "events" to the point of being useless.

Imagine the rummage sale or even a logos Full library search that you were unable to navigate or sort through. Nice idea, BAD EXECUTION.

However this seems to be a recurring theme with the development team. Problem #1: They seem to deliver half-baked unpolished products. Problem#2: there is a resistance to give users tools to customize their library, features, tools to their workflow and their needs.

YES, it would lead to higher complexity of Logos5, but there is a reason why Cadillac is a status symbol and Yugo is not. For some reason LOGOS team is referring to their product as Cadillac (and charging accordingly), but delivering Yugos. That's a shame.

What I would like to see:

  • organizing events into categories and allowing user to display only the categories they are interested in (similar to when searching in our Logos Library we are able to specify what specific collections we want to search. They could be auto-generated by Logos or user-made)
  • giving users the ability to create their own timelines (possibly by creating a Personal Book with Timeline Type, which Logos will then index and display in their Timeline feature)

does anyone know if it is possible to create a Encyclopedia-Type Personal book that is indexed by Timeline?

Posts 22215
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 6:10 AM

toughski:
does anyone know if it is possible to create a Encyclopedia-Type Personal book that is indexed by Timeline?

Bradley commented on a similar question at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/60565/430074.aspx#430074

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 6:16 AM

Patrick S.:
like Paul Revere you are both on your horses yelling "the catholics are coming, the catholics are coming"
Yes, I am jumping with joy that my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters are coming!!!!!  And I cannot wait for my Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and ... brothers and sisters to come.  I want their input too.

Patrick S.:
They've already got what I consider to be junk in there — where will it end?
Yes, you might consider some of the books in Logos junk.  I agree that Logos has junk in the library, but does everyone else consider the same items junk?  I am going to say some will, and some will not.

Patrick S.:
you want every unconsidered, unrelated and unmeaningful date in the timeline
Yes I do.

Patrick S.:
I want Logos ... to ... provide some way to filter
I do believe this is a good suggestion.  I just don't think that data going into the timeline should wait until this implemented.

Patrick S.:
p.s. and it's "vetting" not "venting"
Thanks for catching this.  I did updated my post.

 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 6:18 AM

toughski:

However this seems to be a recurring theme with the development team. Problem #1: They seem to deliver half-baked unpolished products. Problem#2: there is a resistance to give users tools to customize their library, features, tools to their workflow and their needs.

YES, it would lead to higher complexity of Logos5, but there is a reason why Cadillac is a status symbol and Yugo is not. For some reason LOGOS team is referring to their product as Cadillac (and charging accordingly), but delivering Yugos. That's a shame.

Yes

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 6:38 AM

tom:
Patrick S.:
They've already got what I consider to be junk in there — where will it end?
Yes, you might consider some of the books in Logos junk.  I agree that Logos has junk in the library, but does everyone else consider the same items junk?  I am going to say some will, and some will not.

Ok, but if Logos is my personal library, why make me check out ALL THE BOOKS THAT EVERYONE ELSE IS READING (as pertaining to dates). Just like allowing me to HIDE books I don't want, please allow me to "hide" sections of the timeline that are of no use to me and that are obscuring the events that are profitable.

tom:
Patrick S.:
you want every unconsidered, unrelated and unmeaningful date in the timeline
Yes I do.
.

Here I would have to agree with Tom. Let ALL dates be a part of the database, but create very easy to use filters that could immediately turn on/off all vyrso-derived dates, for example, all secular events, catholic, Pauline, Kings of Judah, Civil War, etc

In summary:

  • make it A LOT more polished and user friendly
  • give users options to customize appearance to fit their needs

 

Posts 10449
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 7:00 AM

I (and everyone else?) still have the older timeline resources. And it's quite easy to see the difference with the new approach (spagetti) vs the older approach (labeled, organized relative to assumption, author) etc.

Now if they had simply added a menu at the top of the new events panel for 'which assumption', all would have been well. But instead they had to 'force feed' as usual.

Theologically I'm on the far-right. But studying-wise I'm on the far-left (want to evaluate all the choices). But the new events display is a complete disaster for 'all the choices'. You really can't view the sequence under varying assumptions.

A good example is the exodus, where there's assumptions of dating within the Biblical text, assumptions relative to pottery shards etc, as well as the pharoah overlaps.   On my own software, my timeline events are coded relative to the assumptions, so that I can do the spagetti routine, or view the groups individually. And the coding is simple (obviously; it's 'me').

But luckily the older timelines are still around (though un-editable).


Posts 5257
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 12:01 PM

DMB:
I (and everyone else?) still have the older timeline resources.

Not sure about a user coming into Logos for the first time with version 5. Do they get these resources ? 

DMB:
And it's quite easy to see the difference with the new approach (spagetti) vs the older approach (labeled, organized relative to assumption, author) etc.

I'm all for it to be better organised.  I'm have nothing against the option of customizing it, but just don't see Logos going down the path of customizing data sets - but happy for them to prove me wrong because it would make users happy - and that's what counts IMHO.

Posts 5257
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 12:08 PM

Andrew Mckenzie:
Giving the level of tagging involved though I don't think this is a fully automatic process.  Vyrso books are evidence in themselves that automatic tagging can only work to a certain extent.  For the timeline to work correctly I would think it would involve manual intervention and thus some level of vetoing on Logos behalf i.e. I don't think dates in Amish Romance Novels will make it into the timeline - but I don't work for Logos so maybe I am wrong.  Only they can truly answer that.  I think though if a title is of type:Logos (as opposed to e-book or PB) then its fair game to include in the timeline.

Ok Bradley has answered this to an extent in another thread

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
However, the set of events displayed inside the Timeline tool is controlled by the Timelines dataset (authored by Logos) and is not generated dynamically at runtime from your library; thus, it is not possible to add new events to the Timeline from personal books. We also don't currently support displaying links to personal books when clicking an existing event in the Timeline. (It's possible that the Timeline could be extended to support this in the future, but it's not currently possible.)

 

Posts 10449
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 12:12 PM

You're probably right on new users; didn't think about that.

However I pulled my FaithlifeSB out of the trash (battling my PC to let Logos get back on the web ... 'absolutely not!'), but interestingly it has inforgraphics that un-spagetti the BibleFacts display. I'm guessing both use the same source with the FB-SB far easier to see.

For anyone curious, if you try to copy over the timelines from FB-SB, (for me) they arrive really TINY writing similar to the Sense Lexicon. I tried various solutions; the only one I could get to work was to save the image to a file, then bring it back in and resize it (PNGs go out typically 8-20K pixel width). Using 'copy' or >Powerpoint didn't work in readability.


Posts 3163
Dominick Sela | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 12:29 PM

Patrick S.:
just a shame though that Dominick didn't actually address what I said and put words in my mouth that I didn't say. You should perhaps consider that before 'approving' what someone says.

Patrick, I responded to your comments about "vetting" what gets into the time line, and asked the question that this is the same issue a reader could face with resource types in their library beyond timelines. You also asked the question of whether dates from Joseph Smith would be in the time line. How do you feel if references to him are in your other resources? That's not "putting words in your mouth", it's a FACT about the Logos software.  To use your example, in my library, "Joseph Smith" is mentioned in 430 resources, 3,866 times. Why isn't that an issue? That was my point - it's a library, so it will have stuff in it that people don't agree with.

I am signing off this thread now; you accusing me of "like Paul Revere you are both on your horses yelling "the catholics are coming, the catholics are coming"" is insulting. I responded to your comment about vetting and using the Catholic process as the example. If you read closely Patrick, you will see I made no insult to the Catholic Church or anything it stands for. You see Patrick, I AM CATHOLIC.

Good luck I hope you can figure out a way to get much usefulness out of Logos software.

Posts 5257
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 16 2012 12:45 PM

DMB:
For anyone curious, if you try to copy over the timelines from FB-SB, (for me) they arrive really TINY writing similar to the Sense Lexicon. I tried various solutions; the only one I could get to work was to save the image to a file, then bring it back in and resize it (PNGs go out typically 8-20K pixel width). Using 'copy' or >Powerpoint didn't work in readability.

Yes this is a problem I've noted.  Since its supposed to be a subscription based model for FSB maybe the intent is to make it hard for us to use these graphics in a public setting Devil

Posts 8113
LogosEmployee
Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 17 2012 11:25 AM

Patrick S.:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

The events on the timeline are ultimately sourced from resources in the Logos library (not just your library, but all Logos books). 

All books... can we define 'all books'?

The point I was trying to make was that the events in the Timeline are not filtered down to only events that are mentioned in resources in each customer's individual library, but instead are extracted from the set of all books available in Logos. I was not trying to say that all books are currently used as event sources, or that all books will be used as event sources. (As a ridiculous example, if we ever got The Silmarillion in Vyrso format, you wouldn't start seeing dates from the Second Age appear in the timeline. Smile)

Patrick S.:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

but ultimately we're not making an editorial choice about what is and isn't an event. 

Now I start to get really worried. In my opinion there has to be some sort of editorial discernment and discrimination.

My point was not that we just dump everything into the timeline, but that we don't editorialise by enforcing a particular theological viewpoint when creating the events. You'll see both Early and Late datings for the Exodus. You'll see all manner of opinions on when the Epistles were written.

There will be editorial judgement exercised in determining whether the source resource is trying to describe and date an actual historical event.

Patrick S.:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

The actual event is "1806–1812 James Montgomery and Daniel Parken maintain friendship". This event is sourced from the Logos library:

I'm sorry but... huh?!? Who the heck are these guys and what do they have to do with a tool in a Biblical scholarly resource platform? Can we expect Christian romance novels from Vyrso http://vyrso.com/product/24568/her-good-name next? That title looks like it has dates in it.

These dates come from a biographical of an historical figure. You may have sung one of his hymns quite recently. I see no reason why they should be off-limits for a timeline of Christian history.

The Vyrso book you cite is fiction. It should go without saying that its "events" won't be featured in the Timeline. (One might make an exception for real events referenced in historical fiction, but we can wait to make that call until we've finished processing all the non-fiction books in the library... Smile)

Posts 4625
RIP
Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 1 2013 5:13 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
These dates come from a biographical of an historical figure. You may have sung one of his hymns quite recently. I see no reason why they should be off-limits for a timeline of Christian history.

Thanks, Bradley, for helping me personally keep things in perspective!              Just thinking  ...    My Christmas would be 100% without singing in Worship this hymn at least once!               *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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