I'm blown away at the power of L4: a skeptic repents

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This post has 108 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 55
Glenn F | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2009 9:14 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

 

I have been a Logos 3 user since 2006 when I discovered this marvelous product that would allow me to tote a complete Seminary library in my truck while on the road. I don't get to attend a actual live worship service anywhere near as often as I would like. I also do not have access to Pastors and Ministers for counseling necessarily when I have a question. Logos has been my resource to get the answers and advice to my questions. I sometimes would not do a new library search because my old laptop was slow to return results. When I heard about Logos 4 from the sales dept. I ordered the upgrade Scholars Silver to L4 Scholars Silver on the spot, sight unseen, no questions asked. I should have asked a few questions tho. Maybe the sales department might have warned me about the steeeeeep system requirements for the new engine. I was still eager anyway until I saw the actual sys requirements and my video card was the biggest loser and stumbling block to running L4.

I complained or rather whined would be a better term to tech support about having such requirements for a largely text based system. But in all things God has been generous and kind to me. He used my Dad who is an atheist to provide the means for a brand new top of the line laptop specifically to be able to run L4.

Praise God! I have never been more pleased. While there are changes that can and should be made to the program, I am very happy with the changes it has brought to my Bible study. I am still exploring and learning to use it as I should but I for one think it is a great improvement and look forward to the coming features and changes in L4. By doing things this way we get a more direct voice in the end product and don't have to wait years to see the features and changes we want. I can totally sympathize with the users that are having performance issues. I struggled with performance issues on an old laptop from the time I purchased Logos 3.

I'm rambling I know, I just wanted to put my two cents in and let Bob Pritchett and the entire development team and staff at Logos that I am one very pleased customer who has been using there product for over 3 years and have no intentions of abandoning ship over a few teething problems.

I'll just climb down off my soap box now and take my meds.

 

HP DV7-3085dx Laptop, Intel i7 @ 1.6 Ghz, 6 Gigs of DDR3 memory, GeForce 230M Video with 1 Gig memory, 500 Gig HD, 17" Display, Windows 7

Scholars Platinum.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 2:12 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.

 

Bob,

thanks for chiming in...as always; it's a real eye opener when we get to hear the behind-the-scenes info.

 

Thanks for a great product....your efforts are appreciated, even by this V3/V4 user. Yes

 

Keep doing what you're doing to keep Logos healthy!

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 134
Joel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 3:13 AM

Arthur Balis:

I laughed at the salesman who promised me the upgrade to Vista would come free in the mail.

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP. Win 7 is obviously better, but it's sad watching people jumping on the, "I haven't used Vista but hate it anyway." bandwagon. My entire family is perfectly happy with it, and it has caused us all about as many problems as XP has, which is very few.

But I digress... back to talking about L4 :) I love it. I'm glad this thread has suddenly appeared, because I'm also getting a kick out of using it and really wanted to say something about it. I've so far only made suggestions on this forum, but I'd like to say 'good job' to Logos, because L4 has struck an excellent balance, making bible study both simple and deep. If a goal of the Logos crew is to bring God glory through the creation of bible study tools, then in my mind they've certainly done that well with L4.

Posts 2977
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 5:51 AM

Bob Pritchett:

DeniseBarnhart:

And on the other, they delight in keeping customers in the dark as long as feasible, until the customers are at just the right boiling point.

Sorry -- that's not our intention. Until Logos 4, we've run almost every beta publicly, and we're right up front about most things we're doing. (Pre-pub is a pretty good advance notice system of what books we're doing, for example!)

Past experience has shown us, though, that there's a cost to dribbling a product out in public beta. For one things, sales of the existing product dry up when people anticipate a new one, even if you promise free updates for a period. (But it's hard to predict when the beta will end, which makes it hard to even make that promise.)

In the past we've ended a very public beta process with barely enough cash to make payroll. (Years ago -- that wasn't an issue this time.)

We did toy with naming Logos 4 something completely new -- because to us it is in many ways a v1.0 product. It's like the original Mac following the Apple IIe. It's not just the next release in a series, though, like the Mac, it is the "next flagship product." While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users. So a lot of our thought about Logos 4 -- and about when it was "better" than Logos 3 -- had to do with meeting the needs of tomorrow's user. Because shipping Logos 4 takes NOTHING away from Logos 3 users -- you still have Logos 3, and can wait for Logos 4. But for new users, the question is, was Logos 4 yet a more compelling purchase / experience than Logos 3? And our belief was that it was, with easier installation, less confusing activation, simpler, streamlined interface, etc. The fact that sentence diagramming and prayer lists weren't there yet didn't outweigh the benefits of not frustrating new customers with our 2001-era interface and installation process.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users. You are very important to us, and we're taking your concerns seriously and addressing them. I'm just trying to provide some explanation of the subjective and complicated decision making process. I'm not saying we made the right call, or picked the exact right moment for each action...just talking about what influenced us.

-- Bob

Bob, it is my experience as I show Logos4 to potential new users, they get more excited about it than they did about LDLS3. I think a lot has to do with the "look", but honestly, I think that you guys succeeded in making the learning curve a little less steep. I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit  and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve. The iPhone support goes a long way toward picking up new customers as well. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 1937
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 9:17 AM

Jacob Hantla:
Bob, it is my experience as I show Logos4 to potential new users, they get more excited about it than they did about LDLS3. I think a lot has to do with the "look", but honestly, I think that you guys succeeded in making the learning curve a little less steep. I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit  and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve. The iPhone support goes a long way toward picking up new customers as well. 

I think as well that the tighter integration of visuals has gone a long way towards appealing towards the larger market. Let's face it, the vast majority of potential users are not scholars. Yet, when when you read Bible software comparisons, a lot of the reasons to choose one package over another is often scholarly based. Now, I'm not saying that we should "dumb down" Logos Bible software, but the reality is that most users don't care or know how to use academically orientied stuff. They want some good commentaries, cross references, pictures, maps, etc. Combine this with multiple platforms (i.e. iPhone, Mac), you have a great combination.

I think the danger is that Bible software becomes the domain of academics and can even be a bit snobbish. It really grinds my carrots when I read academics slam Logos by claiming that a lot of what Logos offers shouldn't appeal to people and then they go on about some elite resource that they have. The truth of the matter is what they are bragging about having is probably something I want for my studies, but I know the vast majority of my friends don't care about half of what I now own on Logos and other Bible software programmes.

The best scenario is to keep a strong team of academics involved to keep Logos on the cutting edge, while keeping it within the grasp of everyone else. I think Logos 4 does this very well. Kudos for Bob and the team for what you are doing. I can guarantee you that others in the Bible software world are taking note of some of the cutting edge things you are doing like multiple platforms, cloud computing, developing a truckload of resources, etc.  They are either taking note believing that their current strategy is correct, or they are going to come up with similar innovative ideas.

Posts 2779
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 12:52 PM

Bob,

Thanks for your comments and for interacting with us.  I have been very critical but I see a positive upside to Logos 4. So thanks for trying to let us understand what has, is and will be going on.

Bob Pritchett:
While we are improving and adding to Logos 4 constantly, I don't see this period as an extended beta, I see it as a finished v1.0 product with constant updates and improvements. I can see how, from the perspective of a Logos 3 user looking for feature parity, it's not fully baked. But someone with no Logos 3 experience would see it differently.

I would disagree with your belief that new customers would see things differently. There are a few things that new customers will miss greatly. Printing is a key one, with great limitations there. And the overall performance on many systems. I would bet there are more than a few new customers who were like me frustrated with the performance. It is better in the beta of 4.0a, but still not yet up to the speed of many other Bible software applications or v. 3.

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 2:20 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.

It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos.  Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.

-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate.  All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)

I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."

------------------------------------------------------------------

Just my rantings, but I think L4 is a great program and I look forward to it becoming even better.  I just start to feel (somtimes) that those of us who have helped grow Logos (through our purchases) are now (or maybe just becoming) a second thought.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 2:44 PM

Joel:

I laugh at people who think Vista is terrible. I push Windows harder than most, and for me Vista has been a solid upgrade from XP. Win 7 is obviously better, but it's sad watching people jumping on the, "I haven't used Vista but hate it anyway." bandwagon. My entire family is perfectly happy with it, and it has caused us all about as many problems as XP has, which is very few.

Yes, I can remember all of the negative comments about Windows ME which came on my old computer though I didn't experience those problems.  The only problem I had with ME which finally drove me to install Xp was that it didn't display Syriac and Ethiopic properly.  I suppose there are those who will always complain.  I complain too.  I don't think L4 is nearly on a par with L3 for my use though it has some very nice features L3 didn't have.  I do, however, expect that this will be rectified and will therefore simply report the problems.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 29590
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 2:54 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos

It wouldn't surprise me when you think of the seminary student making their first purchase and minister's minimum base packagge being at least mid-range. If Logos does not succeed in the new users arena, add-ins and word-of-mouth dries up quite quickly. Then again, I may be biased because Logos 4 is the first version to handle differences in versification and canon sufficiently well that I don't feel like a second-class user.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 3:45 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:

Bob Pritchett:

Our conversations in the forum are largely with Logos 3 users who are moving to Logos 4. Your complaints and concerns are legitimate, and we are listening and answering them as fast as we can. And together you vastly outnumber the number of "first time users" who purchase Logos 4. 

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.

I hope you don't take offense -- I don't mean to diminish or devalue our existing users.

It would be hard for me to imagine New-Users are on par with Existing-Users in revenue terms for Logos.  Between L3ers moving to L4 and L3/L4 users purchasing add-ons and prepubs (I'd imagine new-users are not near as likely to do this) I'm surprised "we" are ONLY "pretty well balanced" in revenue generation.

-You'd have to also take into account the word-of-mouth advertising that L3 users moving to L4 will generate.  All those things added together ought to significantly outweigh ALL New-Users. IMO (always a chance I don't know what I'm talking about)

I've heard a few times now about how L4 is "focused" on New-Users, but then how us L3 "old timers" shouldn't fret about it, "we're still pretty important."

Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have.  Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data???  such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President...

 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 4:00 PM

Joe Miller:

Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have.  Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data???  such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President...

Indifferent

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 4:18 PM

Joe Miller:
Wow, you must have some information the President of Logos Bob P. does not have.  Hmmm.. who should I believe has the most accurate data???  such a tough question to answer.... Random user or Company President...

Joe, that's not terribly fair.

Bob was talking about parity of revenue for the base packages in the roll out of v4. Jeremiah was talking about general revenue for the company. We do know from past statements from Bob, that very few purchasers of base packages go on to buy other resources. We do know that very many of the users on this forum have invested significantly in resources other than packages over the past few years, esp. through the pre-pub program. 

So while there may be parity over the course of these couple of months, it can safely be assumed (book budgets allowing) that pre-existing users will continue to provide Logos with a significant revenue stream through their continued addition of new resources to their libraries.

 

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 4:33 PM

Damian McGrath:
Bob was talking about parity of revenue for the base packages in the roll out of v4. Jeremiah was talking about general revenue for the company

Damian,

I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.

His quote:

However, in the practical world where we pay the bills, the revenue generated from existing Logos 3 users is pretty well balanced with what we generate from completely new users.

I think that Joe was pointing out the arrogance (or seeming arrogance) that Jeremiah displayed by questioning Bob's calculations about revenue, user base, etc...

I have to be honest...I must agree...it would seem that I'm going with the president of the company in question, who has the data to back up his statements on this one... Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 4:36 PM

Robert Pavich:
I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.

Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 4:46 PM

Damian McGrath:

Robert Pavich:
I believe that Bob WAS talking about "overall general revenue" for the company.

Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....

 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 5:05 PM

Damian McGrath:
Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....

Is your cane on order or are you going straight to the walker?

Posts 726
Chris Elford | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 5:08 PM

Jacob Hantla:

I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit  and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve.

Jacob,

That describes me perfectly. I got L3 and was very excited. But, I couldn't figure out how to make things work. I tried the help files and couldn't understand them. I tried old newsgroups but rarely got answers to my questions that helped me. I spend several hundreds of dollars upgrading to Gold and Original Languages - at first thinking the program would help me do good research then hoping additional resources would help me do good research. Eventually, I realized I didn't understand how the program worked and settled down to using it a s a prayer reminder and Bible reader. I tried to get people interested in it, but my inability to show how I used it always stood in the way.

I found the transition to L4 challenging as I was part of the Beta and we had no help files at all and other features that either broke or weren't working at all - e.g., syntax search. BUT, I've kept at it - partly out of my commitment to the beta trial and partly because I started finding I could do things I wanted to do in L4 that I couldn't understand how to do in L3. Now, L4 is not perfected and has more features to come, but I'm already (I know 3 months in vs. 1 month) doing much more in L4 than I ever did in L3. I'm blown away by the power now and the potential later. I'm showing people real results from my research and study and they are getting excited. This is what, I believe, Bob and his team wanted to see happen: More people doing Bible study - yes more profit for Logos, but more profit so they can make an even better product. If L3 had reached its saturation point, then L4 was a necessary step for the company and a beneficial step for the Kingdom.

When I transitioned to Microsoft Word from Wordperfect 15 years ago, I kept both running for a few months. There were things I knew how to do in WP that I couldn't figure out in MS Word, but after a few months I removed WP from my computer. That's how I view L3 to L4.

I know the transition is hard and there are problems with some systems in terms of speed and with some users in terms of features, but overall, this new implementation process will yield a product that is much more "Designed by me" than any other I've seen. The features users use and want will be there. Makes me think of a democracy.

Chris

Posts 2212
Damian McGrath | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 5:21 PM

Philip Spitzer:

Damian McGrath:
Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....

Is your cane on order or are you going straight to the walker?

I refused to go with bi-focals or progressives - I had to get ones that magnify..... For two weeks, I was barely able to read the lectionary or prayers in church...

And I am young (-ish).

 

BTW. Sorry, Joe.

Posts 18899
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2009 6:38 PM

Chris Elford:

Jacob Hantla:

I saw a lot of people who were excited about LDLS3 quit  and only use it sporadically because of that learning curve.

That describes me perfectly. I got L3 and was very excited. But, I couldn't figure out how to make things work. I tried the help files and couldn't understand them. ... I spend several hundreds of dollars upgrading to Gold and Original Languages - at first thinking the program would help me do good research then hoping additional resources would help me do good research. Eventually, I realized I didn't understand how the program worked and settled down to using it a s a prayer reminder and Bible reader. ...

That pretty much describes me, too. I was basically using L3 as a glorified concordance.

Chris Elford:

I found the transition to L4 challenging as I was part of the Beta and we had no help files at all and other features that either broke or weren't working at all - e.g., syntax search. BUT, I've kept at it - partly out of my commitment to the beta trial and partly because I started finding I could do things I wanted to do in L4 that I couldn't understand how to do in L3. Now, L4 is not perfected and has more features to come, but I'm already (I know 3 months in vs. 1 month) doing much more in L4 than I ever did in L3.

I've only been using it for about six weeks now, but I'd also concur. I know L4 better than I ever knew L3, and can do more with it. There's still more to learn, and I'm looking forward to more of the functionality being back so I can learn how to do things in a simpler way that I was never able to do before.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2009 2:57 AM

Damian McGrath:
Damian McGrath"]Thanks Bob - you may well be right as I re-read the statement with my new glasses on.....

Damian,

Just wait until your my age..arggg...I have to take my glasses off most of the time; I spend all day at work on a computer and can't even see it with my glasses on!

Enjoy your youth where everything works (at least fairly) correctly... Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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