Warning Label Request:

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This post has 105 Replies | 7 Followers

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Jan 30 2013 4:38 AM

I re-submit my request which was deleted without courtesy or due notice to the public forum as follows:  ( this is not North Korea, this is a respectful and legitimate inquiry ).

[redacted]

So will there be a warning or new category [on books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with]?

Posts 191
Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 5:11 AM

I must admit I sometimes miss these threads, they can be interesting.

Posts 414
LogosEmployee
Vincent Setterholm | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 5:17 AM

I don’t know why your post disappeared – whether it was moderated or the result of a server glitch. That sort of thing is out of my purview.

 

But from time to time we get people suggesting that we slap warning labels on this or that resource to protect the unwary from whatever perils lie within. There are all sorts of reasons why we shouldn’t comply with these requests. To name a few:

 

For starters, it is insulting to our customers. Our customers are responsible adults (brilliant and good looking, too!) who are fully capable of reading a product description and deciding if it interests them for whatever reason. Is anyone really going to buy the Vatican II documents without knowing (or learning from the product description) that they are Catholic documents and (warning!) may contain Catholic doctrine? Are any of those customers ambivalent about why they are buying that product, whether to investigate their own faith or learn about the faith of others or for apologetic reasons? Have you ever met a 'new Christian' who ran out and bought the Vatican II documents? Even a Catholic one? It seems this desire to protect the unwary imagines a type of customer that doesn’t really exist.

 

We get all sorts of requests for documents completely outside any definition of Christian orthodoxy. I for one would really like a decent edition of the Hadith. But publishers have a reasonable expectation that their babies aren’t going to be disparaged by us in our marketing materials. So we can’t really go around slapping heresy labels on things that some might find offensive – that guarantees that we won’t be able to serve the people who want or need to interact with that literature. A few years back I had some interesting conversations with Mormon missionaries, and I would have loved to have their literature on my machine in a high quality edition with all the cross-references linked up and so on – and we get requests for this all the time. But that’s not going to happen if we think our more mainstream customers are so brittle that we can’t publish materials like this without commentary for fear of some sort of back-lash.

 

I hate to use the ‘e’ word, but we see our role as empowering our customers to work through the Bible for themselves. We don’t think it is our job to play theological police, and I don’t think you want us trying. After all, it is highly unlikely that our new Committee for Theological Purity would match your particular set of convictions like a glove.

 

And I’ll stop with this point: we want to meet the needs of everyone who is wants to study the Bible, regardless of their faith tradition (if any). This means we want to sell books to Catholics. Indeed, it is such a growing market for us that we’ve made separate base collections just for them (the Verbum product line) and have a team working full time to make sure we’re addressing Catholic needs. It would be very self-defeating for us to put disparaging labels on everything Catholic right as we’re starting to make headway in that market. You might disagree with this goal, but everyone benefits from a larger customer base: there’s a lot of work we could never afford to do if we only served a very narrow audience.

Posts 250
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 6:34 AM

Vincent Setterholm:
It would be very self-defeating for us to put disparaging labels on everything Catholic

 

In the interest of fairness wouldn't you need to label every resource (warning, reformed, evangelical, dispensational, liberal, Jewish theology, etc included).  I think it was M.J. who pointed out that if Logos didn't include resources that were not acceptable to some Christians we would be left with only one or two books of the bible and nothing else.  While I don't agree with everything in my library I've found almost everything to be useful (Even when I strongly disagree with an author's argument I often find their research on a subject useful)

Posts 8842
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:06 AM

Mike W:

Vincent Setterholm:
It would be very self-defeating for us to put disparaging labels on everything Catholic

 

In the interest of fairness wouldn't you need to label every resource (warning, reformed, evangelical, dispensational, liberal, Jewish theology, etc included).  I think it was M.J. who pointed out that if Logos didn't include resources that were not acceptable to some Christians we would be left with only one or two books of the bible and nothing else.  While I don't agree with everything in my library I've found almost everything to be useful (Even when I strongly disagree with an author's argument I often find their research on a subject useful)

I would agree with this and with Vincent's comment preceding.  It would be nonsensical to institute a Protestant Index of Prohibited Books after the Catholic Church, if I am not mistaken, has retired that.  If you really feel the need to include some warning, write a [respectful] review of the work since Logos has introduced the ability for customers to do such.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 449
Garrett Mercury | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:27 AM

I think slapping a "Warning" label on Logos materials is stunningly absurd.

Posts 1856
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:48 AM

I am happy with how things are done now. If we had to start warning labels, where would it stop? I know Calvinists that say arminianism is dangerous to ones faith, and vice-versa. I know people from both camps that I would consider to be true Christians. 

I know at least two (and I'm not catholic, nor in a particularly catholic demographic area) Catholics who I believe (speaking as a protestant, and southern baptist) are true believers. I know at least two Catholics I wonder about, and can think of at least two southern baptists that I truly do wonder RE whether they are really saved at all. 

In the end, I think the onus of responsibility is on the buyer (caveat emptor).

Do your due dilligence and you'll be fine. If not, you probably aren't interested in Logos in the first place. We tend to be slightly bookish either because of our profession, or current location in our education, or because we had that tendency any way. 

Finally, I find it of benefit to study the beliefs of people I am serving. Its good for me to know what a catholic believes - even though we have more than a few areas of disagreement, when a catholic wanders into my church, its of value to me to know where they are, and why, so that I can help them (see what I believe to be the truth). I would expect the Catholic contingent on the forum might want to know about southern baptists for the same reason. If I ever wander into a catholic church, they would be in a better position to disciple me as well. 

Perhaps this gives away my thinking regarding the quality of the usual Logos subscriber. Perhaps the same could be said about your position as well. Just be wary of pride, and so forth. Obviously those of us in leadership of our particular tradition are only in these positions because we believe them to be accurate. Perhaps there are things in each of our traditions that are of value. Certainly as a protestant, an interim pastor, and a seminarian, I've studied a significant amount of the writings of catholic fathers. 

*shrug*
 
 I guess the long and short of what I'm saying is people here, considering our demographics, are smart enough in terms of theology, to understand what they are buying. 

iPad 3, iPhone 5, Octo-core pc with 16gb of ddr3. Bibliolater. Abondservant.com

Posts 8842
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 8:03 AM

abondservant:
Perhaps this gives away my thinking regarding the quality of the usual Logos subscriber. Perhaps the same could be said about your position as well. Just be wary of pride, and so forth. Obviously those of us in leadership of our particular tradition are only in these positions because we believe them to be accurate. Perhaps there are things in each of our traditions that are of value. Certainly as a protestant, an interim pastor, and a seminarian, I've studied a significant amount of the writings of catholic fathers.

I've heard it said that there is nothing so zealous an antismoking opponent as a reformed smoker.  Perhaps this is the situation here.  I'm just guessing, but based on the handle "Luigi Sam" I suspect the OP was originally Catholic.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1856
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 8:12 AM

George Somsel:

abondservant:
Perhaps this gives away my thinking regarding the quality of the usual Logos subscriber. Perhaps the same could be said about your position as well. Just be wary of pride, and so forth. Obviously those of us in leadership of our particular tradition are only in these positions because we believe them to be accurate. Perhaps there are things in each of our traditions that are of value. Certainly as a protestant, an interim pastor, and a seminarian, I've studied a significant amount of the writings of catholic fathers.

I've heard it said that there is nothing so zealous an antismoking opponent as a reformed smoker.  Perhaps this is the situation here.  I'm just guessing, but based on the handle "Luigi Sam" I suspect the OP was originally Catholic.

There were several conclusions I had come to, that being one of them... If catholic, I would suggest they were possibly from a variety that more closely resembles what exists in Europe as well. Having been (as a tourist) to catholic places of worship in both the US and Europe, there is definitely a difference, in art, in attention paid to Christ, and so forth. I'll PM you some of my experiences in Europe if you are interested. While I've since re-gained a balanced view (I think) I came back to the states with a more negative view of Catholicism than I'd left with.

iPad 3, iPhone 5, Octo-core pc with 16gb of ddr3. Bibliolater. Abondservant.com

Posts 7273
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Super.Tramp | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 8:22 AM

Luigi Sam:
So will there be a warning or new category [on books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with]?

No. We don't need warning labels.

If you would like a list of "approved" books I suggest you contact your pastor, priest, or elder and ask them. Restricting your buying to such a list will surely save you money.

 

Luigi Sam:
this is not North Korea

Not very many citizens of North Korea would be keen on warning labels, IMHO.

 

...

Posts 14339
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 12:40 PM

Luigi Sam:
So will there be a warning or new category [on books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with]?

Vincent did a good job of answering from the business side.

Mike W:
 I think it was M.J. who pointed out that if Logos didn't include resources that were not acceptable to some Christians we would be left with only one or two books of the bible and nothing else.

Quite true.

However, there is simple empirical evidence of the difficulty of implementing your proposal. The Stone-Campbell movement, in which I was raised, spawned about 27 different Church of Christ groups - all of which are sure that they are the true Christians. A Southern Baptist minister in the forums told a joke that having 4 Southern Baptists in a room meant you had 6 positions. The Catholic/Orthodox tradition to which I belong has a rich history of disagreement - in a couple of millenia there is probably no topic not argued over.

As it is impossible for humans to know the mind of God, we have to go with the definition commonly used in English-speaking culture. Therefore it is safe to say Logos does label "books in the library that contain theology/doctrine Christians disagree with" They are called Logos resources. Were Logos to go further would lead them into the sin of hubris - not something I would want to be a part of.

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 6391
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 1:04 PM

Well, it's certainly a 'forum'. I'd assume theologically that Logos, not being 'church-y', has no ability to discern other than to each his/her own. But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability). And so all the little Church of Christs in West Texas (my Dad attending ACC about the same time, and preached several).


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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 2:17 PM

MJ. Smith:
A Southern Baptist minister in the forums told a joke that having 4 Southern Baptists in a room meant you had 6 positions.

Maybe even more Big Smile

Posts 7273
Forum MVP
Super.Tramp | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 3:24 PM

DMB:
But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability).

I like it that way. Smile

DMB:
But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability).

I like it that way, too. That is precisely why I recommend asking one's pastor for an "approved" list of books. (If one is so inclined...)

 

...

Posts 8842
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 4:35 PM

Super Tramp:

DMB:
But within the church-y world it's just the opposite. Humans do assume the responsibility (and presumably the ability).

I like it that way, too. That is precisely why I recommend asking one's pastor for an "approved" list of books. (If one is so inclined...)

My recommended list:  Anything your little pea-pickin' heart chooses to read.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 192
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:12 PM

It's hard to know where to begin with this thread, except that it looked to be one of those fun ones for us lurkers to follow (our name is legion) while enjoying popcorn and being amazed at just how far people will go on a forum like this.  I guess its a true blessing that it never gained traction, and I suppose my even posting to it is a macabre kind of wishful for tragedy voyeurism (not unlike watching me do a children's sermon every week).  

My only thought is how sad it would be to honestly believe that warning labels were required, just in case false doctrine crept in, and some poor soul failed the test and was rejected at the gates.  How perfectly sad to live in such a state of fear.

 

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 1 Jn 4:18.

Be at peace.  God is love, and He is not trying to catch us in some doctrinal snare.

After all, once we get there we'll all be Reformed.  (joke, joke, joke, jk!!!)  Smile

 

Windows PC - Android Phone - Nexus 7 Tablet

Posts 8842
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:21 PM

Michael March:
our name is legion

Come out !

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 192
Michael March | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:26 PM

George Somsel:
Come out !

She was afraid to come out of the locker...

she was as nervous as she could be...

Big Smile

Windows PC - Android Phone - Nexus 7 Tablet

Posts 30
Luigi sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:36 PM

Michael March:
My only thought is how sad it would be to honestly believe that warning labels were required, just in case false doctrine crept in, and some poor soul failed the test and was rejected at the gates.  How perfectly sad to live in such a state of fear.

 

interesting. I understand the nicety of your observation.

However on the flip side,  "faithfully contending for the faith", and "fear" are actually two subjects that are very valid. Perhaps most western cultures dim their senses like a slowly cooked lobster (me included)?  Perhaps the verse summarizing "God as love" is taken too far in the sense of the seriousness of some matters.

 

 

I will post again in a minute to summarize my OP.

Posts 8842
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 30 2013 7:51 PM

Michael March:

George Somsel:
Come out !

She was afraid to come out of the locker...

she was as nervous as she could be...

Big Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR98gRckjmY

Mk 5.9

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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