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Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 8:13 PM

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Another morning, I made a statement about the Mother of our Lord and how Roman Catholic's wrongfully dealt with her.

Oh Really ! he says again ( heavy english accent ), and what pray tell do you base your opinion in? he asks?

I tell him ( knew I was lost at "Oh Really) and he just smiles.

Next morning: I am given the assignment to spend all of my time for the next 30 days researching everything I can find in history and theology on the Blessed Virgin Mary, across all Christian disciplines.

Oh my Lord!

We do not speak of it again till I have done my task.

He asks: What have you learned.

My answer: That I am an ignorant man and quite arrogant about it!

He smiles: Ahh, less so now my young friend, much less so, now.

Hi Charles,

I thank you for putting your heart on paper, and I appreciate this. However I too am doing this - but most people here are just abhoring me for it.

In regards to the above story (which I just quote the above) it grinds against my being, since the Quote I gave is clear:

The First Sentence of page 64 of "The Catechism of the Catholic Chruch in english: 1882.d_1997-08-15- SS Ioannes Paulus II - Catechismus Catholicae Ecclesiae - EN.doc is:   (downloadable from post http://community.logos.com/forums/p/65685/458940.aspx#458940

  • "   Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin: she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life.[306]   "

 

  1. There are no additional works that anyone needs to know about sin in order to test this against what is written in the bible on this issue: 
  • Luke 1:46-47, Romans 3:23, Romans 3:10, Romans 5:12, Galatians 3:22, Eccl 7:20, (Luke 2:21-24 Relating to Lev 12:6-8)
  • (as a group: Mark 10:18, Hebrews 7:26, 1 Peter 2.22)
  • etc.

 

Please try not to rebut this issue when I made no effort to explain the quote I was concerned with ( in order not to breach forum guideline).


In summary:

if it is not my place to make a commentary about this quote, it is not your place to rebut it.

 

but again thanks for replying with your heart on your sleeve.

regards

Posts 2033
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 8:48 PM

Luigi Sam:
 I am persuaded that it is a systematic and orderly approach. 

 

Yes, it is a systematic and orderly approach BUT

Conclusion:  The idea is Good – feed milk.  The problem is no one can define ‘milk’ for all users. [1 Pet 2:2 

I did not go back and read all of the posts but my spot checks were that the forum was saying that it could not be done.  

And because they see it as not being able to be done they shot the suggestion down 

They shot it down because it is impossible to do not because it was a bad suggestion

Details: 

There is a minor problem; Authors, Publishers, and sometimes even Churches do not label their works by denomination.  Maybe it is that each “KNOWS” that it is the one and only true way so that it is all the others that need to label their works. 

[as in ‘we don’t have to label our works as we have the truth!’ – NOT!] 

[[in the US putting NOT at the end shows that the preceding was false]]

[Have seen Churches hid their true identity behind fake names to get their works read because of prejudices against the name that they are widely known by.  And have seen those works receive wide approval – until it gets rejected because of who it is by and not for what it says.  Have seen Authors write under pen names to hide their true identity.] 

Also authors do change over time.

In LOVE, Fr. Charles R. Matheny has reached out to you.

He has exposed his soul so let’s use his life, hopefully in love, as an example.

When he was young he believed and had he written would have written as an XYZ

When he was fellowshipping, with his mentor, he would have written as an MNO

Now in his current stage he might write as a DEF

And, as he is still learning, he may soon write as an ABC

[[where XYZ,  MNO,  DEF,  and ABC are some "denomination label"]]

150 years from now, with current publishing standards – that is no publisher nor author puts labels on their own works, how will they label his life’s works?   He slowly moved from one stand to another to another and may move more.  [[as many of us do]]

There is a work around that it seems that you have rejected.   “Collections”

You stated “Recommending rounding down the works to ones of a denomination to appease a gentle mind for a new Christian who is apt to research and equipping them to discern that comparisons can be made based on denomination of any one topic surely doesn't deserve being mocked?”

Now, from my point of view, you have gone from being the student that found something distasteful to the mentor that wants their student to eat milk before moving on the strong meat.  SO set your student up with collections that you build for them with you selecting what your student uses.  Take the responsibility of guiding them thought their early years.  

But you seem to want US to label them for you.  We have tried to say not that it was not a good idea but that it cannot be done.  Not that we cannot do it but that it just cannot be done.   

We, not me personally but many of the others, can help you select books for a given well defined denomination’s new member – sometimes.  

BUT to do that for all resources and all denominations is just impossible.  

 

Posts 9944
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 8:52 PM

Luigi Sam:

Hi Charles,

I thank you for putting your heart on paper, and I appreciate this. However I too am doing this - but most people here are just abhoring me for it.

I don't abhor you for it, but you have been given an answer by Bob yet you continue to drag out the issue.  Also, you have started two threads dealing with basically the same issue.  Like many others I'm getting tired of it.  We just want you to give it a rest since you have your answer.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 9:10 PM

David Ames:
There is a work around that it seems that you have rejected.   “Collections”

please see: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/65465.aspx

which is: Home>Logos 5>Warning Label Solution:

 

where I am entertaining this idea for that particular issue.

thanks.

Posts 23709
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 9:13 PM

Luigi Sam:
but most people here are just abhoring me for it.

No, very few forums users abhor anyone. They do, however, sometimes get frustrated when communication is broken. Perhaps it is because we are all so passionate about reading scripture that we expect others to read what we have said - not what they expect us to say. I am sorry that you feel so misunderstood, just as others may feel misunderstood by you. To say more would be counterproductive. What is appropriate is to lift the injuries and frustrations up to the Lord - and leave it there.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 2033
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 9:35 PM

Luigi Sam:

David Ames:
There is a work around that it seems that you have rejected.   “Collections”

where I am entertaining this idea for that particular issue.

thanks.

To follow up with what another poster commented:  When are you going to comment on the rest of my post?

Where I agreed with you that you have a GOOD idea but stated [in different words] that it just can not be implemented except by a mentor for a student - one on one.

[[Conclusion:  The idea is Good – feed milk.  The problem is no one can define ‘milk’ for all users. [1 Pet 2:2 ]]

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 10:30 PM

David Ames:
 The problem is no one can define ‘milk’ for all users. [1 Pet 2:2 ]]

What is milk?

Did Peter know what 'milk was'?

Is most of the book of Hebrews written in a way which helps define teaching in a milk like way?, and addressing milk like subjects that are applicable to the readers? Hebrews 5:11-14

( it is true that Hebrews has a few verses which most struggle with, but it also has some of the best milk like teaching and subjects I have read. ever! )

 

Is milk starting from what we know to clarrify it until we are hungry again and need to know more?

Another question might be: what do you need clarrifying in that is most concerning to your faith?

  • From this you can lay out the foundation in the bible, being careful not to impose any thing extra to the context of each passage.
  • Often times a reading of the whole bible entirely will iron out alot of questions.

 

Maybe Milk means something different for people at different stages of maturity?

For the most part, for a new Christian, beginning a personal study of their faith: What is Milk?

I Propose:

Goal:

Read the whole bible = Milk

As you go ask questions = Milk

Be content to leave some questions until you have read the whole bible = Meat.

 

 

 

 

David Ames:
just can not be implemented except by a mentor for a student - one on one.

 

give me a moment: I will Edit this post once I read it.

David Ames:

Now, from my point of view, you have gone from being the student that found something distasteful to the mentor that wants their student to eat milk before moving on the strong meat.  SO set your student up with collections that you build for them with you selecting what your student uses.  Take the responsibility of guiding them thought their early years.  

But you seem to want US to label them for you.  We have tried to say not that it was not a good idea but that it cannot be done.  Not that we cannot do it but that it just cannot be done.  

I guess you mean that part of your post.

That is not really what I meant.  I wouldn't recommend micro managing a students Library, Nor restrict them to 'only an approved list'. 

I did mean what you quoted from me:

“Recommending rounding down the works to ones of a denomination to appease a gentle mind for a new Christian who is apt to research and equipping them to discern that comparisons can be made based on denomination of any one topic surely doesn't deserve being mocked?”"

 

And that is what i meant.  Yes some works will be in a multiple denominational category and so forth. Yes sometimes writers do not necessarily represent that denomination as an authority, yes sometimes authors change their denomination. Yes there would be works that would just have to be defined as "unknown". 

  • However seeing that many works are clearly denominational or clearly define a group of denominations. Why not make the category then seeing that this is the case?
  • the Christian can still compare what other denominations teach. they aren't restricted. It is just more orderly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Posts 18079
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 11:11 PM

Luigi Sam:

Yes some works will be in a multiple denominational category and so forth. Yes sometimes writers do not necessarily represent that denomination as an authority, yes sometimes authors change their denomination. Yes there would be works that would just have to be defined as "unknown". 

  • However seeing that many works are clearly denominational or clearly define a group of denominations. Why not make the category then seeing that this is the case?

Denominational lines do not delineate what is milk and what is meat. It is not the case that someone growing up Baptist who is fed on only Baptist literature is getting only milk, nor is it the case that someone who is a new Christian in some other denomination who gets hold of some Baptist literature is going to be exposed necessarily to meat when they should still be feeding only on milk.

Denominations are artificial boundaries made by man, based sometimes upon minuscule disputes which many years later are resolved and the denominations join up again. Dividing up what people should read at various stages of their spiritual growth based on what denomination the author was a part of, or was most influenced by, is arbitrary and not likely to be helpful.

As David Ames pointed out, it really is better to have a mentor/student relationship, in which the mentor is a mature Christian who is widely read and aware of some good "milk" books, regardless of what denomination they may fall in (Augustine's Confessions for example, would definitely not be listed as a Baptist book, but a good Baptist mentor of a new Christian might recommend that this person read that powerful conversion story and spiritual autobiography, as it's a classic and not that difficult to understand; note that Catholics would likely claim it as their own (I see that it has the community tag "catholic"), but if one always is nervous about exposing new Protestant believers to anything with the "Catholic" label, one would miss out on this great book).

Furthermore, many many people who are new in the faith have come to it after a lifelong search; they are exceedingly well-read in all sorts of philosophy and science and other religions, and are accustomed to tackling tough questions. If they are "protected" from such things by warning labels on their Library and are fed only pablum, they will find the Christian life to be paltry and shallow. In fact, many mature adults who surrender to Christ late in life already have read some of the stuff you'd want to keep away from them.

God uses all sorts of things to break down people's barriers to trusting in Jesus, including writings that might not be my or your brand of orthodox Christianity. I would rather trust God to lead people by the Holy Spirit to read the right things for that particular person given his/her life background (which might not be the same as what's right for another person) than trust myself or Logos to put the right labels on resources that would steer every new Christian or inquirer towards a solid faith.

Posts 268
Kelvin Niblett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Feb 5 2013 11:51 PM

As a church leader (pastor), a cursory look around my office I notice some recent book purchases;

 

Richard Dawkins - The Greatest show on Earth: the evidence for evolution

John W Loftus - Why I became an atheist

Alain de Botton - Religion for atheists

Brian McLaren - A new kind of Christianity

N.T Wright - The Climax of the Covenant

 

All of these books have diametrically different doctrinal viewpoints, they even challenge one anothers worldviews.

 

However reading why Loftus became an atheist, allows me to question and grow my own faith.

Likewise de Botton allows me to see how organised and organic Christianity is percieved by non believers and then the human narratives that religion speaks loudest too.

McLaren has some great ideas that not all church people like, some call him too liberal, others not liberal enough.....

NT Wright's views once were maligned by the mainstream church and theologian, has now found acceptance in large parts of the Christian church.

 

My point is;

caveat emptor

 

You have a brain, so you need to use it and choose what is doctrinally sound.

In some ways Luigi you are struggling in an age of information where academically there are few absolute truths, just differing opinions.

 

It is up to YOU to read widely and make your own opinion!

 

Posts 268
Kelvin Niblett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Feb 6 2013 4:50 AM

Luigi Sam

 

Please look at and respond to this new post

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/65806.aspx

 

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 7 2013 7:58 PM

Kelvin Niblett:
In some ways Luigi you are struggling in an age of information where academically there are few absolute truths, just differing opinions.

mmm I understand where you are coming from, however, the point in having 'a large library' and 'powerful computational devices' is to get the most out of them. We do this by categorising to reduce the seeingly endless load of information into parts we want to read. 

If ( for example ) I want to exclude from one of my studies all catholics writings (regardless of if portions of them absolutley align with the truth) then, I see no reason why I should not be able to do this***

*** Note that I would likely look at the catholics writings that were on topic anyway, and if a catholic writer has a better explanation, then Kudos where due. 

If you oppose denominational (broad grouped categories) tell me this:

  1. would you let a catholic priest come and preach on your chruch pulpit? 
  2. and if you did:
  • 2.a) would you tell him it has to be moderated ( a subject that we both agree on), and 
  • 2.b) inform your congregation that a catholic priest will be preaching this sunday.

 

If this convicts you, then how are you saying that denominational categories are invalid or not useful?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 7 2013 8:29 PM

Gentle reminder about Logos Bible Software forum focus => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

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Posts 65
Randy Marsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 7 2013 11:40 PM

Kelvin Niblett:
you are struggling in an age of information where academically there are few absolute truths, just differing opinions.

I disagree with the entire postmodern viewpoint that everything is relative, but still, that does not mean that we have to agree on everything.  Also, while I do say that, that does not prevent me from reading books by people with other points of view.  I do read books that have other points of view on a regular basis, it does help me learn.  It also helps me to be able to talk with people who have radically different points of view than what I have, I have also occasionally changed my point of view by reading other works, or at least had some modifications to that point of view from time to time.  Reading other points of view is also part of how I became a Bible believing Christian.

Posts 1366
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 8 2013 12:52 PM

Much of this thread could have been avoided if it had been labeled differently. If it had been titled "Denominational Label Request" I believe most users would agree that there is value in reading beyond one's denomination (I realize that labeling creates it's own challenges with understandings that change over time and individuals may not align 100% with the denominational badge they wear, if any). I now believe that Luigi has explained that he is systematic in his approach to secondary literature.

The word "Warning" is what forced some into a defensive posture and has caused (some intended and some unintentional) harsh accusations of others within the broad spectrum of Logos users. Nobody wants to think of their beliefs as deserving of a "warning", but fewer would object to their belief system being tagged or identified.

Posts 65
Randy Marsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 8 2013 2:47 PM

David Thomas:

Much of this thread could have been avoided if it had been labeled differently. If it had been titled "Denominational Label Request" I believe most users would agree that there is value in reading beyond one's denomination (I realize that labeling creates it's own challenges with understandings that change over time and individuals may not align 100% with the denominational badge they wear, if any). I now believe that Luigi has explained that he is systematic in his approach to secondary literature.

The word "Warning" is what forced some into a defensive posture and has caused (some intended and some unintentional) harsh accusations of others within the broad spectrum of Logos users. Nobody wants to think of their beliefs as deserving of a "warning", but fewer would object to their belief system being tagged or identified.

I agree, that would have been a whole lot better and a lot less threatening to a lot of people.

 

Posts 2704
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 8 2013 2:48 PM

Which Christians?  Don't you know what you disagree with?

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 65
Randy Marsh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 8 2013 2:56 PM

Michael Childs:

Which Christians?  Don't you know what you disagree with?

I used to not be a Christian.  I used to be agnostic.  I used to be into scientism, putting faith into scientific theories instead of the Gospel.

That does not mean that I have thrown science out of the window, but I have placed my faith in Christ and in his Word, the Bible.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 9 2013 7:03 PM

David Thomas:

If it had been titled "Denominational Label Request"

True. I agree.

However to my defence I changed my stance after posting the original thread, and it didn't occur to me to change the title like that. 

I wish you suggested it earlier : )

Thanks all the same though.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 9 2013 7:17 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Gentle reminder about Logos Bible Software forum focus => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

 

Hi KS4J,

I was only validating denominational categories as useful, and sensible in Logos, because denominational labels are commonly used and employed by everyone naturally on occasions.  I hope you understand.

 

ie even the Gospels group some of the people as the "Sadducee group, and others in the Pharisee group."  it is natural, useful and responsible thing to do.

Thanks.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 9 2013 8:54 PM

Luigi Sam:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):
Gentle reminder about Logos Bible Software forum focus => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

Hi KS4J,

 

I was only validating denominational categories as useful, and sensible in Logos, because denominational labels are commonly used and employed by everyone naturally on occasions.  I hope you understand.

 

ie even the Gospels group some of the people as the "Sadducee group, and others in the Pharisee group." it is natural, useful and responsible thing to do.

 

Thanks.

Reply preceding gentle reminder had "tell me this" questions that are appropriately discussed elsewhere, which now includes faithlife.com

God immensely loves every person, regardless of denomination (and other) labels.

My favorite Logos feature is visual filter highlighting so can "see" what God inspired; wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters

Keep Smiling Smile

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