LOGOS PLATFORM is being sold as Catholic

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This post has 149 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Feb 3 2013 9:33 PM | Locked

 

The Issue:

This thread is to raise the issue that the Logos platform is being advertised and sold as Catholic. (Verbum latin for "the word")

I raise this issue as it seems to contradict the purpose of the Logos platform being 'non-denominational'.

 

While It is true that the Logos platform supplies Libraries for each denomination, and Logos can offer base packages customized to a denomination.

However Verbum re-labels and advertises the Logos Platform as Catholic software "for Catholics".

 

The Logos sales model is frequently outlined to be a non-denominational software product that offers titles and libraries for all denominations. Why then do catholics get the whole Logos Software Platform rebadeged and advertised for them?

 

Im not arguing:

  • I don't oppose catholic libraries, nor Logos creating base packages according to a fair selection of denominational groups.

 

I am arguing:

  • Only Catholics get to re-brand and resell the Logos Platform as Catholic  (Verbum) .
  • Thus highjacking the purpose of a 'non-denominational program' by re-advertising it as Catholic.

 

Therefore:

I oppose Logos being re-branded as Verbum, which is highjacking a what is supposed to be a software product designed all denominations.  Surely you cant just relabel it Verbum and advertise it specifically to any one denomination and say that Logos can maintain its stance that it is a "non-denominational" platform

 

Consider:

Davar (or Dabar)  | Hebrew | The Word

Logos                     | Greek    | The Word

Verbum                  | Latin       | The Word.

 

  1. Is Logos going to sell the Logos Platform as Davar and advertise it explicitly as Jewish Software?
  2. Do Protestants or any other NAMED DENOMINATION have the right to advertise Logos as theirs exclusively (ie Logos is not named Logos for Protestants)?
  3. Why do Catholics get to highjack the Logos Platform ( which is non-denominational) and re advertise it as a software program "for Catholics"?

 

 

 


Solution Proposal 1:

  • offer base packages by Denomination ( of which only a “catholic” advertised one has been made at the moment TBA for others)

  • remove Verbum advertising and concept. Which is catholic re-badge of a non-denominational software product.

 


Solution Proposal 2:

IE all denominations are treated the same. Verbum breaks this model.

 

 

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 9:42 PM | Locked

Another Solution would be:

1. remove Verbum, but offer Catholic base packages, and Catholic WorkSpace Layouts.

  • ( IE this is equiv to a Catholic Mod to the neuteral Logos Platform)

This also places the Logos platform back as a 'non-denominational' software platform.

 

 

Posts 15644
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:06 PM | Locked

Luigi, give it up. Why do you care? Why do you feel so personally injured by Logos's decision to market a particular rebranded version of their mainstay product for Catholics, who have been less reached by the product in the past than Protestants? You're sounding an awful lot like a 5-year-old child crying "It's no fair!" to his mother because his sibling got to play with his favorite toy, when there are still hundreds of other awesome toys to play with in the toy chest. Go enjoy using Logos and stop worrying about how it is sold to this or that market segment.

It is Logos's decision, they made it for business reasons, and they are not going to change it based on one individual's repetitive griping about it. Bob has already answered your concerns and he is not interested in changing in the ways you have suggested, or in responding to you again.

Bob Pritchett:

Verbum was created for practical reasons in response to feedback from both Catholic and protestant users. We may or may not segment other content based on market size and demand. But even these segments cross lines -- there are books that are included in both the Logos and Verbum base packages. And users of each who want resources sold with the other.

You are not being penalized or restricted or charged more in any way by using the main product called Logos, or by the newer Catholic customers having it branded Verbum for them.

So just give it a rest. You are sounding like a broken record, and we're all getting sick of this topic.

Posts 646
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:12 PM | Locked

Cross Posted as Luigi shut down and moved his thread.

Luigi: First, I have responded to you several times.

Next: I think the whole thing is ridiculas.

Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest. When you first posted ( yes, I have read them all) as distasteful as it was, you were at least honest, now, you cover your real intentions with all sorts of "straw man " arguments, thats what I think.

You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply. 

I find the whole thing quite distasteful, just to be honest with you.

Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

Straw man argument.

The only person /persons that could complain about Logos being hijacked would be the owners of what had been hijacked.

Logos is not complaining about Logos being hijacked.

Logos software is a company, they have every right to do whatever they wish with thier product.

You, as a customer have every right to buy it or, not buy it.

If you don't like the way Logos is being managed , write a letter to the owner, call him, his number is listed.

I don't think you will though because the real issue you have is with Catholics and Catholic Materials. You believe they should be labeled as false doctrine, you want warning labels placed on them as if they are poison. This is why you hate Verbum, for you feel Catholic is getting a leg up on protestant denominationalism, through Logos. Thus, your real motivation and purpose is to do all you can to combat Catholic growth in any way you can.

In my humble opinion, this is not the place for Chick Track mentalities or discussion of same.

Again, Logos is a company, they have the freedom to market as they please.

I have no issue at all with Catholic branding, with Jewish branding, Pentecostal etc.

Next:

What we have now is two "overarching" groups represented, those two "groups" are:

1. Protestants - huge libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

2. Catholic- Huge Libraries to choose from, can choose to add resources from all over the Christian experience.

1a. Logos standard has resources from all over the protestant experience and it's history, including Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non-Denominational, generally all Evangelical disciplines.

2b. Catholic/Verbum- Libraries of resources covering/of special interest to:  Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican and other disciplines.

Note: Looks to me like Logos is simply trying to cover the known Christian market as it is normally seen , trying to meet the "needs" of those who will/would be buying thier products.

Opinion:

Logos is doing well to do so, Logos is looking to meet the needs of it's user base and looking to expand that user base- Good business plan.

Logos is a company , will grow or die based on it's business decisions.

No one here has a right to make those business decisions for Logos for no one here is willing to take the risks, make the investments Logos is willing to make.

Logos has many employees, they have families , those families need to pay bills, Logos has to grow in order to take care of it's employee base.

Logos has to deal with Publishers , a very, very difficult situation these days, very confused environment , much like Music Industry before iTunes changed everything. Logos has to respond to the Publisher environment, their needs, demands in order to get those resources, this , in all likelihood, plays a major role in Logos Marketing decisions.

Logos can now, for the first time, in reality, truly make a claim to being non-denominational, for not only do they have some catholic resources available in a protestant format, but they now have a catholic format, thus serving both the Evangelical/Protestant disciplines AND the Catholic Disciplines.

I have never complained about the Protestant Software and Libraries, I use them.

I am very blessed to now have the Catholic Software and Libraries.

Again Luigi: I find the whole thing distasteful , now dishonest. If You don't want the catholic resources, don't buy them.

You have no use for Verbum, don't buy it.

You have all the access you want to Protestant Software and Libraries.

If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version.

Logos software "systems" is a computer platform to access and use the Logos library system.

Logos is the best way to access Evangelical Protestant library resources.

Verbum is the best way to access Catholic Library resources.

The Catholic Library system "is" somewhat different ( be better when finished ) because the tagging to Catechisms/Lectionaries effects how we access materials and, catholics also have some different key-words we use in "subject" searches. We also have some different Biblical books.  We often use parts of history "some" evangelicals don't use or use as often. We use a lot of Greek and Latin words/word groups/phrases that have to be tagged/accounted for that "some" evangelicals would have no interest in.

I could give you probably another dozen or so reasons why Verbum IS NOT just Logos "rebranded" as you like to say so often. There has to be an enormous amount of coding done in Verbum that is different than the Evangelical/Protestant version called Logos .

Ok, you asked, you have my answer.

Personally think I/we should all just quit responding to these threads because the real and core issue is your being Anti-Catholic , wanting all Catholic materials branded with warning labels as "dangerous" and making uneducated biased statements like : catholic lay people don't read and study the Bible as much, don't know the faith etc. etc. 

Again, I find your whole reason for all of this to be most distasteful, thus I will be praying for your enlightenment.

Hope that covers everything for you in a succinct way.

Pray you find Grace and Peace in Christ Jesus.

Posts 168
Kelvin Niblett | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:17 PM | Locked

Rosie Perera:

Luigi, give it up. Why do you care? Why do you feel so personally injured by Logos's decision to market a particular rebranded version of their mainstay product for Catholics, who have been less reached by the product in the past than Protestants? You're sounding an awful lot like a 5-year-old child crying "It's no fair!" to his mother because his sibling got to play with his favorite toy, when there are still hundreds of other awesome toys to play with in the toy chest. Go enjoy using Logos and stop worrying about how it is sold to this or that market segment.

It is Logos's decision, they made it for business reasons, and they are not going to change it based on one individual's repetitive griping about it. Bob has already answered your concerns and he is not interested in changing in the ways you have suggested, or in responding to you again.

You are not being penalized or restricted or charged more in any way by using the main product called Logos, or by the newer Catholic customers having it branded Verbum for them.

So just give it a rest. You are sounding like a broken record, and we're all getting sick of this topic.

Well Said!!!

 

Posts 1240
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:18 PM | Locked

Logos does this because there are millions of Catholics and Logos wants their business. It's ultimately about making more money, which the Catholic market undoubtedly brings in. There is certainly pros and cons to this. However, I find it strange that Logos and it's leadership explicitly disagree with Catholic dogma but have created a Catholic product.

It's one thing to provide Catholic-based resources to study, it's another to purposely make a product solely for Catholics to use to advance their erroneous theology.

Posts 1240
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:23 PM | Locked

One more thing, I'm not saying that Logos needs to stay theologically neutral. That's impossible. There needs to be a line. Logos has already demonstrated that they have such a line. This is why they would never create a product geared solely for Jehovah Witness' or Mormon's. However, that market is considerably smaller than the Catholic one. Hmmmm...

Posts 646
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:25 PM | Locked

Luigi writes:

I am arguing:

  • Only Catholics get to re-brand and resell the Logos Platform as Catholic  (Verbum) .
  • Thus highjacking the purpose of a 'non-denominational program' by re-advertising it as Catholic.

My Reply: Where did you get the idea that Catholics are "rebranding and reselling" the logos Platform Luigi?

Thats just nuts.

Logos-The Company has created a "different version" called Verbum, with lots of different coding/materials/resources etc. to meet the needs of the catholic/orthodox/anglican/lutheran community. Logos sells it, not Catholics.

Good grief.

Posts 1240
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:32 PM | Locked

I have voiced my opinion on Logo's Catholic Practicum product. This is a video series designed to help Catholic's study their own resources within their own "Catholic Scripture study methodology". This product blatantly encourages and advances Catholic theology.

Posts 1416
Chris Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:39 PM | Locked

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

Posts 646
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:41 PM | Locked

Best post yet Chris, best yet.

Posts 1240
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 10:57 PM | Locked

Chris Roberts:

<Insert witty, angry, pointless response here>

There. Thread finished. Nothing left to be said.

I wish that were true. However, there are many Logos users who are sincerely concerned about this issue. Most wouldn't dare post their concerns though out of fear of being labeled intolerant. I used to be a Catholic. In fact, most of my family is still Catholic. I certainly don't hate Catholics. However, I firmly believe that their dogmas and theology have serious salvific implications.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

Posts 14239
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 11:19 PM | Locked

Josh:
If you're someone who believes that Catholic tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Church of Christ tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Church of Christ theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Finnish Lutheran tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Finnish Lutheran theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Mennnonite tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Mennonite theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Congregational tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Congregational theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Presbyterian tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Presbyterian theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Episcopal tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Episcopal theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Assembly of God tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Assembly of God theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Methodist tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Methodist theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Unitarian tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Unitarian theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Quaker tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Quaker theology.

If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Jewish tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Jewish theology.

I believe that covers my grandparents, parents, aunts & uncles, siblings and first cousins. Somehow, we can discuss religion with mutual respect. We don't need to wear name-tags with our denominational leanings. So please repeat for the 41, 000 denominations that Wikipedia refers to. I would hope it brings everyone a bit of humility.

From wikipedia: "Note: This is not a complete list, but aims to provide a comprehensible overview of the diversity among denominations of Christianity. As there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations, many of which cannot be verified to be significant, only those denominations with Wikipedia articles will be listed in order to ensure that all entries on this list are notable and verifiable."

PS.

Josh:
a product created solely to advance Catholic theology.

Correction: the product advances individual Catholics' Bible study which is quite a different matter - one that all people who believe the Bible is the Word of God should support especially if they believe in sola scriptura as that should imply that any serious and honest study will lead to the truth.

Logos4catholics Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 646
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 3 2013 11:26 PM | Locked

and MJ knocks one out of the park right over mid field!!!

Yea MJ.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2013 1:16 AM | Locked

Rosie Perera:
Luigi, give it up. Why do you care?

Hi Rosie,

I dont quite know how to be more polite. Yes I have concerns about many denominations as might anyone else here, however this is not the forum to post about those concerns in a direct manner seeing this is a forum that is suppost to be for a denominationally neuteral software product.

This particular thread is designed so that a denominationally neuteral software product  can be fair to all denominations in the sense of being a platform that can supply the needs of any denomination.  Thus the platform itself does not need to be rebranded for catholics or any other denomination in an exclusive manner.

  1. Please read the original post in light of the fact that I would raise this issue if it were any denomination (or at least I would agree that it seems to make the Logos platform and Logos business ideal of being not neuteral in an uncorrectable and inbalanced way as it stands). It just happens to be Catholic in this case.
  • I am not opposing denominational "mods" to the platform,
  • nor denominational "libraries or base packages" 
  • seeing that if i did oppose these I too would be imposing my denominational slant on the Logos platform.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2013 1:43 AM | Locked

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Next: I believe your responses now are dishonest

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
You whole reasoning in your first post was that Catholic materials needed warning labels because you believe them to be dangerous , especially to new believers. I responded to those posts, you did not reply. 

Hi Charles,

Well perhaps you choose to take my words the wrong way on some occasions too. As I did quite fairly adjust my stance so that it was a denominationally neuteral feature (not just catholic).  I appeal to you to give me credit for this at least.

Also, Yes I have concerns about other denominations including Catholicism. However my intentions are to raise awareness of critical denominational issues so that a wise denominationally netural software product can be used as a tool for those who are consious of those issues.  Yes I raised specific quotes in order to highlight some problems as critical regarding catholicism (Yes I did this regardless of my thoughts that Logos should implement features to make itself support those consious of those iessue). However I had to make those issues relivant to Logos.  So yes I have been a little crafty in this way. My conscience prompts me to admit this.  

However, to Logos credit, (although we all likely knew how my intentions started and (to my credit changed to make sure the things I suggested supported Logos being denominationally neuteral) they still allowed my threads because of the fact that I have made them relivant to aid denominationally conscious bible study using Logos as the platform. 

 

 

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
Next: You keep speaking of Logos being hijacked.

well to be fair to you I did use words that were intended to illustrate the issue, rather than a literal wording of what actually might of occured. I used "artistic license" as such.  I guess it is kind of derogitave. my bad.

 

 

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:
If Verbum is the Catholic version, then Logos Standard is the Protestant version

Thanks for acknowledging this.

Please understand, quite simply then You can understand my issue:

 

  • Logos Standard is not advertised (in words explicitly) as Protestant.
  • Verbum is advertised (in words explicitly) as Catholic.

 

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2013 1:56 AM | Locked

Fr. Charles R. Matheny:

Where did you get the idea that Catholics are "rebranding and reselling" the logos Platform Luigi?

Thats just nuts.

Hi Charles,

I dont want to agrovate you, but that is an example of what I meant on my previous post to you regarding taking my words the wrong way sometimes.  

I am trying to respond without taking what people say offensively when they seem angry (and posting angrily back), or posting things out of context, or post things without referring to the full context, or progress of changes in stance as a thead progresses.      

regards.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2013 2:27 AM | Locked

Josh:

I have voiced my opinion on Logo's Catholic Practicum product. This is a video series designed to help Catholic's study their own resources within their own "Catholic Scripture study methodology". This product blatantly encourages and advances Catholic theology.

 

Hi Josh,

thank you for posting your thoughts Josh, just becuase I was getting a little discouraged seeing I am trying my best to raise an issue in a fair manner, to support us users as denominationally aware users so that users like us ( and yes Catholics are denominationally aware users too just like protestants are) can have denominatinally aware features for Logos in a way that is fair to all denominations! (a mouth full :D).  

I cannot directly reply to your post here.

However if you post this inHome>General>Warning Label Request:  I can reply to it without this Thread going off topic?

Thanks.

Posts 285
Luigi Sam | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2013 2:30 AM | Locked

MJ. Smith:
If you're someone who believes that Catholic  Church of Christ tradition and doctrine can mislead a sinner into a "false salvation", then you should be concerned with Logos promoting and advertising a product/resource created solely to advance Catholic Church of Christ theology.

(...)

 

Hi MJ,

I agree and fully see the need for the solution to be as I explained to Josh:

" I am trying my best to raise an issue in a fair manner, to support us users as denominationally aware users so that users like us ( and yes Catholics are denominationally aware users too just like protestants are) can have denominatinally aware features for Logos in a way that is fair to all denominations! (a mouth full :D). "

 

AND i ASKED HIM TO RAISE THAT POINT IN THE BEST SUITED THREAD (JUST IN CASE ANY ONE STARTS GOING OFF TOPIC :) ).

Posts 1244
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 4 2013 2:37 AM | Locked

Luigi Sam:
Also, Yes I have concerns about other denominations including Catholicism. However my intentions are to raise awareness of critical denominational issues so that a wise denominationally netural software product can be used as a tool for those who are consious of those issues.

"To Dream, the Impossible Dream..."

If there is one thing that we have learned in the 20th Century it is that where you stand and what you look for is quite influential about what you see.  Now, by bringing this up, by NO means am I advocating total relativeness or denying that we can know anything about things.  But it is a LOT easier to say "denominationally neutral" or "non-denominational" that to actually BE these things. The fact is that different people study the Bible for very different reasons.

Luigi Sam:
Yes I raised specific quotes in order to highlight some problems as critical regarding catholicism (Yes I did this regardless of my thoughts that Logos should implement features to make itself support those consious of those iessue).

But I am not sure your actually read them.  As I, as admittedly an outsider, understand Roman Catholic theology, it is a very different thing to say that something has been seen in scriptures for a very long time and saying that it is required element of the deposit of faith that as dogma must be confessed.  With regards to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the quotation you gave was a statement of historical fact that people have talked that way (namely, that it is really hard to tell the story of Jesus without talking about Mary).  It was not a statement that Mary is the co-redemtrix who has a status equal to her Son.  Rome has never officially said that.  Even in proclaiming the Immaculate Conception, it is stated that this is so in order that she may bear Jesus.  I admit that I think this was an over-reach to close off this debate about when and how God made Mary able to bear Jesus...

But this very misreading of quotes is an example of what I am trying to say.  Unfortunately we all ask different questions of scripture and because of this have a real hard time understanding each other.  This makes it really hard to make a universal tool that would apply to all.

 

Speaking as a Lutheran, I would love it if there were clear, built in tools to help us to clearly show the distinction between Law (what God has given us to make the world work smoothly and should be used to help our neighbors, but which causes terrible consequences when we try to use it to control God) and Gospel (how God in Christ in the Cross is still actively coming to us - choosing the weak, the broken, the outsider, in short, you who are crushed by the Law, reconciling them to God in himself).  But many christians (oddly, from my perspective) do not think this life giving distinction which we find running throughout the whole bible and without which we fail to see much sense it in, is that important...  And so I make do with what we have.  Actually, I rejoice in what we have, having been trained before tools like this were available.  It takes out so much of the grunt work...

And I fail to see the problem.  It is obvious from looking at the base packages that "Logos" has an evangelical protestant slant...

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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