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This post has 123 Replies | 17 Followers

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 3:16 PM

Joe Gschwandtner:
Not true. Universal apps work on Windows Phone and Windows 8/8.1 now and are being published daily, and nothing keeps Logos from creating one today.

What keeps Logos creating one is:

  1. Universal apps don't work on Windows 7 (in other words they're not universal).
  2. Windows 8/8.1 users would gain nothing from a universal app.
  3. Therefore they're only of benefit to Windows Phone users.

I mentioned Windows 10 because:

  1. Universal apps are being improved for Windows 10: http://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/09/30/universal-windows-apps-get-better-with-windows-10/
  2. Universal apps aren't useful whilst you still have to support Windows 7. That's not going to stop being necessary until at least Windows 10 is out, probably Windows 11.

The long and short of it is that Universal apps are currently only useful for phone app developers to widen support to desktop users. They're not useful for desktop developers to widen support to phone users.

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 3:49 PM

in other words they're not universal

Not going to debate whether Microsoft chose a good term. Turns out, they don't work in Windows 3.11 for Workgroups, either. They're apps.

Windows 8/8.1 users would gain nothing

Windows 8/8.1 users would very much so gain something, as the conversation between Daniel and me indicates.

they're only of benefit to Windows Phone users

Therefore, they do not only benefit Windows Phone users.

apps are being improved for Windows 10

Of course, Microsoft is going to improve their current development approach for the next operating system version. There will always be improvement, but you can't wait around for some improvement one day or you will never start.

Universal apps aren't useful whilst you still have to support Windows 7

Windows 7 users are going to need to use the Logos desktop app since Windows 7 doesn't support apps. The universal app I'm asking for is not competing with the desktop app, but complementing it. By your logic, Logos should have never created an iOS app, since they already have a Mac program, and there are still Mac users around.

A good number of technology watchers (and possibly Microsoft, I don't remember for sure) have indicated that Windows 10 may very well be the last big release of Windows. I.e., you could be waiting for Windows 11 for a very long time.

The long and short of it is that the potential and strategic purpose of Universal apps is that you can write largely the same app for both phone and Windows app (not desktop, though you can run them on the desktop as well in Windows 10), and not have to start over to have an app in both environments. I.e., your audience of a single development effort just multiplied, which was the very argument of the recent posts of this thread.

No one would want to re-write all the functionality of the desktop program as an app. Mobile devices (including tablets, to a degree, though the Surface functions as both tablet and laptop) are frequently used for specific, small tasks, such as taking down a note or looking up a single item quickly (or very practically, reading a book). That can be beautifully served by an app that complements desktop Logos. iOS and Android are getting these apps, and it's time that Logos engage their Windows users to serve their needs in this space as well.

Why is YouVersion, an app launched by some church in Oklahoma, the go-to app for bible reading world-wide? Logos had decades of Bible software experience under their belt when YouVersion was launched. BTW, that church in Oklahoma managed to create a Windows Phone app, too. Is it really too much to ask of the premier Bible software company in the world to support all of the three major platforms when a church in Oklahoma can do it?

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 5:00 PM

Joe Gschwandtner:
Windows 8/8.1 users would very much so gain something, as the conversation between Daniel and me indicates.

That conversation demonstrated that Daniel wished the desktop app was more touch friendly. That's much easier to fix than building a whole new app.

Joe Gschwandtner:
Why is YouVersion, an app launched by some church in Oklahoma, the go-to app for bible reading world-wide?

Because (a) it was first, and (b) it's free. The "some church in Oklahoma" has plowed more than $20million into developing it.

By the way, I presume you know a simple Logos Bible app already exists for Windows 8/8.1?

Posts 31
Peter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 6:30 PM

I have really been enjoying this thread debate today. I live in Australia a long way from USA. I am right on board with your viewpoint Joe and as an early contributor to the debate I can see that you have certainly livened it up. I have always wondered why on the logos training videos and you tube clips everyone is using a mac. Apple were a latecomer to the Logos community and for a long time people were complaining about the flaky implementation, maybe they still are. Yet for some reason Logos appear to have ignored the rapidly growing user base on Windows 8.1. I have both an ASUS notebook and a surface pro 2 yet the windows software makes no attempt at being touch friendly. In my conversation with Logos staff when I upgraded to logos 6 I was told that touch is not even on their radar. So for reading, highlighting and taking notes on the go I use a Samsung tablet running Android. Please don't mention the appalling excuse for a Windows 8 app. In my opinion it should be withdrawn from the store as it is a disgrace to the brand and has probably been the principal reason for people choosing iPad or Android rather than a windows tablet or phone. Enough of my rant. There is really no excuse not to put the focus back onto windows platforms.

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 7:40 PM

Peter:
I have really been enjoying this thread debate today.

Yes - there's been an arresting dynamic to it.

I would seriously consider moving to Windows Phone myself if a good Faithlife app existed for the OS.

I sympathize with those users with Windows phones who lack an app from Faithlife. I hoped for over a decade that Logos would produce an app for Windows Mobile (Windows CE) or Palm OS that would merely allow customers to read book resources. It seemed to me then an obvious opportunity to grow the enterprise.

I'm not really second guessing the decision not to produce an app then and not second guessing the current decision regarding Windows Phone.

I do think that there are more potential users for a Universal Windows app than Mark Barnes seems to allow. I have read more than a few threads from owners of minimally specified hardware with Windows 8/8.1, both RT and the full version. These Faithlife customers would like to have access to their libraries on these devices.

Mark Barnes:
By the way, I presume you know a simple Logos Bible app already exists for Windows 8/8.1?

Yes - but it is in human nature to want more.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 232
Genghis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 14 2015 8:32 PM

Mark Barnes:
The "some church in Oklahoma" has plowed more than $20million into developing it.

Wow.  Still the investment is worth it, if some poor soul in North Korea can get past the government firewall and gain access to the Scriptures.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 12:59 AM

Peter:
There is really no excuse not to put the focus back onto windows platforms.

Windows 8 is itself part of the "excuse" at the moment. It fallen so far below expectations, that hardly anyone has developed modern apps for it. Hopefully Windows 10 will fix that, and create the demand that is barely there at the moment.

JAL:
I do think that there are more potential users for a Universal Windows app than Mark Barnes seems to allow. I have read more than a few threads from owners of minimally specified hardware with Windows 8/8.1, both RT and the full version.

Does anyone actually use RT? Sales figures have been pitiful for that platform (even worse than Windows phone).

But you're right about people with very minimal hardware. A 'modern app' would have some advantage for them.

For other users, I personally feel it would be better to improve touch on the desktop app, rather than create a new app — although if Windows 10 takes off and more people buy Windows tablets, I may feel differently.

Posts 31
Peter | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 15 2015 3:57 PM

Thanks Mark, that's an interesting comment about RT. The original surface RT and the Surface 2RT are both excellent tablets for those among us who have limited uses for a laptop and want a simpler device. Things such as email, keeping in touch with family through Facebook, YouTube, streaming video and audio both over the home network and online are all accomplished with ease on those much maligned windows tablets. For the senior citizens among my family and friends they are simply perfect and at a price that no one else can match. The marketing of these tablets  by Microsoft was appalling, their benefits are amazing, windows with no viruses awesome. There is a very strong market for second hand RT tablets here on Ebay with prices holding well. Enough of that rant. The Logos windows app is a disgrace to the brand. My wife and friends have to use the other beautiful Bible apps on the platform whilst rubbishing the Logos Bible app to me. As for windows phone, we all have Nokia Lumia phones and are faced with the same problems. The Lumia 520 entry level phone is probably the best selling phone in its class here. Once again we have the same problem. Windows 10 can't come soon enough for me. My concern is that having spent thousands on a Logos library over the years I cannot just drop it and change brands. Logos has us captured and in my opinion is abusing that position by not supporting the latest Windows features and platforms.

Posts 2744
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 12:42 PM

Daniel R Bartholomew:
Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly.  If that happens, I have little need for a separate app.

Exactly. My hope was that Logos 6 will already be that. Well, I still hope one of the 2 options will happen - or both Smile

1... Separate so called METRO application working on all Windows platforms

2... Touch-enabled main Logos 6 program

I would prefer #1 solution because I use Windows 8.1 notebooks and also Lumia 830 phone.  

Bohuslav

Posts 1
Peter Privitera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 5:14 PM

I'd like to add my voice to those who want a universal app ASAP.  I've been using Logos for years and I love it.  I only wish that I could use it in tablet mode (yes, I have the basic app) and on my phone.

Surface Pro 3 is my everyday computer.  I use it as a desktop, a laptop and a tablet.  Constantly.  Logos really shines in the desktop mode, works good in the laptop mode but is not very good in tablet mode (though I still use the pen to navigate ok).

Mark, I wish Logos had kept up with Windows as it evolved.  Windows 8 and 8.1 is not bad at all.  It has been a disappointment in the Marketplace but there is still a huge number of actual users.  Beyond this, and more to the point, the PC market is doing ok and even showed signs of recovery.  Windows 8.1 is doing ok too.  See http://winsupersite.com/hardware/yes-pc-market-recovered-2014.

I'm afraid that Logos will leave Windows users without a universal app for more than a year from now.  Is there any news on the Windows 10 development front?  Is Logos going to get an app out there for Windows 10 shortly after launch?  That would be great.  Or, is Logos going to wait to see how the market goes as it did for Windows 8/8.1?

Thanks for interacting on this forum.

Posts 8593
LogosEmployee

If you'd like to indicate your interest in—and support for—a Universal Windows App for Logos Bible Software, place a bid on this new Community Pricing product: https://www.logos.com/product/50060/windows-universal-bible-app 

Posts 2
Howard C Rich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 28 2015 6:03 AM

I have been a Logos user for a very long time, and I have spent a tremendous amount of money on Logos products.  Over the years I have recommended Logos to my friends, and have argued how much better the platform is than anything else out there.  However, I have been incredibly disappointed with the lack of Windows Phone support.  I am a Windows user to the core.  I have tried to use and love Macs, but I just don't like them.  All this talk about Mac vs. PC. vs. Android is basically preferences.  They are all good platforms.  I have my entire tech life integrated into Windows platforms, and I am not going to move from Windows to a Mac or Android device for Logos.  If Logos wants to hold me as a customer, they will need to develop a fully functional app for Windows Mobile devices.

I was sitting in church a couple weeks ago, frustrated and embarrassed that I had to use YouVersion as my Bible software.  Logos, you are the top game in town for serious study.  But, you will lose me if you don't develop an app for Windows Mobile.

Posts 1545
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 28 2015 6:23 AM

Is this related to the discussion above?

https://blog.faithlife.com/blog/2015/03/logos-app-coming-to-windows-phone-help-make-it-happen/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+FaithlifeBlog+%28Faithlife+Blog%29 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 1602
Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 28 2015 6:52 AM

Veli Voipio:

Yes.  It is the associated blog post connected to the link Bradley provided above.  Also found in a Logos Talk article.

Posts 1
Joseph Hall | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 14 2015 3:16 PM

I'm getting sad now. I'm looking forward to a Windows Phone app, but the production cost graph has barely moved... That could mean either an astronomical cost or a lack of support from the community... Let's make this happen, guys!

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 21 2015 7:35 AM

Joseph Hall:

I'm getting sad now. I'm looking forward to a Windows Phone app, but the production cost graph has barely moved... That could mean either an astronomical cost or a lack of support from the community... Let's make this happen, guys!

Something worth considering for those of us who really would like to see this happen: when they first made the community pricing option available, the max you could bid was $38 or so. For everyone that rushed out like I did, that's the max you may have bid. However, they have adjusted things since then, so if you're willing to pay $50 (or all the way up to $90), you can increase your bid now. Worth it to me.

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 29 2015 10:35 AM

Well, Microsoft just announced that you can now write Windows apps (any device) using Android Java/C++ or Objective C. This could be interesting.

Posts 2768
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 5 2015 5:02 PM

I'd really like to hear from FL on this. Does this change their Windows strategy at all?

Posts 29419
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 5 2015 5:14 PM

Note I have no interest at all in running a business, but I would not change strategies based on an announcement of intent by a software firm. There is often a disconnect between the intent and the delivered ... and between with delivered and the accepted by the user population.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 50
Joe Gschwandtner | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 5 2015 5:59 PM
Note that there has been an app in the store for several weeks that has used this method. This is much more than an announcement of intent.
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