St, Patrick-who?

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:15 PM

An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.

 

Misprint by Logos:

http://www.logos.com/product/17959/st-patrick-apostle-of-Ireland

Assume BIRTH DATE: c. 385

Just the definition reveals a major typo.

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:30 PM

Or Misdefinition by Room4More

Merriam-Webster:

1: one sent on a mission: as (a :) one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b :) the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:43 PM

Room4more:

An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.

 

Misprint by Logos:

http://www.logos.com/product/17959/st-patrick-apostle-of-Ireland

Assume BIRTH DATE: c. 385

Just the definition reveals a major typo.

Whoa!! Whoooaa...

Major disagreement here. Yes, I realize that it is extremely common to insist that "apostle" is a title that can only be rightly applied to the men you named above, but that assertion not only disagrees with Scripture's own usage, it disagrees with common sense. The word means "sent one" (I'm sure we all know that), and it is used in many extra-biblical contexts. Limiting the use of the word to just the ones Yeishuu`a called by name is to onerously misapply the word in an overly-restrictive way.

So, how does one refer to the twelve men who were called by name to be disciples of Yeishuu`a?

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...figure it out yet?...

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Type "the twelve" into your search box and hit enter...see what you get.

That's what they were called.

The Twelve.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 6:59 PM

Given MJ's post and mine, the quesiton is...who sent Patrick? If he wasn't sent, he wasn't an apostle.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 7:50 PM

MJ. Smith:

Or Misdefinition by Room4More

Merriam-Webster:

1: one sent on a mission: as (a :) one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b :) the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group

Interesting, in your desire to prove me wrong you didn't read your own definition.....So how does this definition fit Patrick, he was around then?

[thanks for your supportive definition]

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 7:56 PM

Room4more:

MJ. Smith:

Or Misdefinition by Room4More

Merriam-Webster:

1: one sent on a mission: as (a :) one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b :) the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group

Interesting, in your desire to prove me wrong you didn't read your own definition.....So how does this definition fit Patrick, he was around then?

[thanks for your supportive definition]

LOL...so, how are the cherries this year? Sweet, are they? Wink

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 7:58 PM

David Paul:

Room4more:

An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.

Whoa!! Whoooaa...

Major disagreement here. Yes, I realize that it is extremely common to insist that "apostle" is a title that can only be rightly applied to the men you named above, but that assertion not only disagrees with Scripture's own usage, it disagrees with common sense. The word means "sent one" (I'm sure we all know that), and it is used in many extra-biblical contexts. Limiting the use of the word to just the ones Yeishuu`a called by name is to onerously misapply the word in an overly-restrictive way.

So, how does one refer to the twelve men who were called by name to be disciples of Yeishuu`a?

apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14

Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?

 

I can wait....

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:03 PM

Seriously, dude?

Hmm

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:08 PM

David Paul:

Seriously, dude?

Hmm

Seriously - who made him an "Apostle" and that by Biblical definition? Rev 2:2 [seems you have a lot of reading to do....]

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:11 PM

I believe you have a typo in the part emphasized. I've corrected it for you and now will bow out of this OT thread.

Room4more:
1: one sent on a mission: as (a :) one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b :) the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:19 PM

MJ. Smith:

I believe you have a typo in the part emphasized. I've corrected it for you and now will bow out of this OT thread.

Room4more:
1: one sent on a mission: as (a :) one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b :) the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group

Ok same question: who made them Apostle's based on the Biblical definition? adding; who are they?

 

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:27 PM

I think David's question was apropo.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:34 PM

and more typos,  Paul, Matthias, Andronicus, Junias, and of course Jesus Himself, all who are named as apostles in the Scriptures.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:42 PM

Room4more:

apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14

Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?

You missed two: Phil 2:25 and 2Cor 8:23. In the first the apostle is Epaphroditus who was an apostle (sent with a message) of the church in Phillipi to Paul. You might have missed that one, since it's not usually translated apostle. In the second (2Cor 8:23) the apostles are some anonymous "brothers." You'd need to look at the surrounding context of 2Cor 8, but you'll see that these are not the 12, but as is usually the case, just church members sent on a mission.

In one case (Heb.3:1) Jesus is also called an apostle (i.e., He was sent by God with a message and a mission).

The term then seems to have both a restrictive and a broad sense. The restrictive sense points to the 12 (plus Paul). The broad sense includes Epaphroditus and the anonymous brothers mentioned above. Once we make room for the possibility of a broader sense, then some of the passages you cite above can be seen as possibly referring to this broader group.

EDIT: fixed a type in a scripture reference

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:43 PM

Alex Scott:

and more typos,  Paul, Matthias, Andronicus, Junias, and of course Jesus Himself, all who are named as apostles in the Scriptures.

Paul - a definite Apostle

Matthias - replaced Judas

Andronicus - never stated as an Apostle rather known by the Apostles[mentioned only once]

Junias(Junia)  - same verse same as above

so what was the point you were attempting to make?

 

 

 

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Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:55 PM

... and of course there was Barnabas and Epaphroditus.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 8:55 PM

Richard DeRuiter:

Room4more:

apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14

Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?

You missed two: Phil 2:25 and 2Cor 8:23. In the first the apostle is Epaphroditus who was an apostle (sent with a message) of the church in Phillipi to Paul. You might have missed that one, since it's not usually translated apostle. In the second (2Cor 8:23) the apostles are some anonymous "brothers." You'd need to look at the surrounding context of 2Cor 8, but you'll see that these are not the 12, but as is usually the case, just church members sent on a mission.

In one case (Heb.3:1) Jesus is also called an apostle (i.e., He was sent by God with a message and a mission).

The term then seems to have both a restrictive and a broad sense. The restrictive sense points to the 12 (plus Paul). The broad sense includes Epaphroditus and the anonymous brothers mentioned above. Once we make room for the possibility of a broader sense, then some of the passages you cite above can be seen as possibly referring to this broader group.

EDIT: fixed a type in a scripture reference

Thanks Richard[seems to be a typo in the resource itself, I will report it, missed that one.], now we seem to be getting somewhere.

Epaphroditus, is only mention in Phil, but never confirmed as an Apostle by true Biblical definition. But I do believe that Paul was making a very clear and distinctive point by the variant and by not using the Apostleship that was given to him. He apparently saw/understood the difference.

Apparently we do not....

 

R4m

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Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 9:00 PM

Room4more:
so what was the point you were attempting to make?

Just that you're dead wrong, and if you must try to generate controversy, at least pick a subject where the Scriptures don't so obviously contradict you.

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 9:05 PM

Alex Scott:

Room4more:
so what was the point you were attempting to make?

Just that you're dead wrong, and if you must try to generate controversy, at least pick a subject where the Scriptures don't so obviously contradict you.

But they haven't yet and there are only 4 verses that deal directly with "Apostleship" - and they seem pretty clear as to the position.

Thanks for the comment.

 

 

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 9:19 PM

Richard,

Yes we are apostles[messengers/ambassadors] in the broader sense that we are to Proclaim the Gospel, but No, not Apostle's in the sense that we have physically seen/been with/ Christ.

 

 

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