St, Patrick-who?

Page 2 of 5 (95 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next >
This post has 94 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 9:58 PM

Ok well I guess I need to leave you with something to do:

All I wanted to know was who gave Patrick the title of Apostle? was it the church-which church and why? Based on the Biblical definition he could not have been appointed an Apostle, based on the broader sense he should have been an apostle.

mercy, based on the flow of the conversation I am glad that I didn't post my first thought: Who said he was a Saint, and from whom did he get the title?

[[...yes, Rosie, Socrates at work.....{seek and ye shall find}]]

 

R4m

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:12 PM

Room4more:

David Paul:

Seriously, dude?

Hmm

Seriously - who made him an "Apostle" and that by Biblical definition? Rev 2:2 [seems you have a lot of reading to do....]

Actually, you need to read something yourself, like the post a few inches above this one where I say that unless Patrick was sent, he wasn't an apostle...

Room4more:

Ok same question: who made them Apostle's based on the Biblical definition? adding; who are they?

Okay, class...pay attention. What we have here is a textbook case of petitio principii, which is a term that essentially means "assuming what must be proved" (which logicians illogically call "begging the question"). You see, THERE IS NO BIBLICAL DEFINITION of the word "apostle". Anyone who thinks there is such a definition in the Bible is assuming that there is because they have personally settled on what "apostle" means, and they likewise assume that they got their definition from the Scriptures. In reality they got their so-called "definition" from conversations and writings about the Bible.

These ideas are really just deductions and inferences that people make about the term and to whom and where and how it can be applied. Most of this is awkward over-reaching at best...twisting Scripture at worst.

To the question "who made them (A)postles", the answer is ANYONE and WHOEVER sent them...and the senders could be literally anyone...because, ANYONE who is sent by ANYBODY is an apostle. Now, let me field a couple of questions I know are percolating in the peanut gallery--"But what if they aren't REALLY apostles?!?" But, if they were sent--THEY ARE. "But what if they aren't really TRUE apostles!?!?" Again, if they were sent, they are apostles, and if they are apostles, they must be true apostles, because they (again) meet the ONLY required necessary element required, which is "having been sent". They truly are apostles.

There is a problem with calling a person either "a false prophet" or "a false apostle" when that person speaks things that aren't true. Someone might conclude that the person is simply a prophet or apostle who carries and speaks a false message. In addition, someone could conclude that the person is not really a prophet or an apostle at all. The reason this could be a problem is because the person COULD be sent by YHWH with a deliberately false message, as a test. This is seen in both Deut. 13 & 2 Thes. 2, and we aren't even directly touching on YHWH commissioning evil and lying spirits to do His bidding as we see in Samuel and Kings. Such an individual would thus be truly sent by YHWH (thus really BE an apostle), but speak falsehood.

Room4more:

David Paul:

Whoa!! Whoooaa...

Major disagreement here. Yes, I realize that it is extremely common to insist that "apostle" is a title that can only be rightly applied to the men you named above, but that assertion not only disagrees with Scripture's own usage, it disagrees with common sense. The word means "sent one" (I'm sure we all know that), and it is used in many extra-biblical contexts. Limiting the use of the word to just the ones Yeishuu`a called by name is to onerously misapply the word in an overly-restrictive way.

So, how does one refer to the twelve men who were called by name to be disciples of Yeishuu`a?

apostle: Mt 10:2Mk 6:30Lk 6:139:1011:4917:522:1424:10Acts 1:2262:3742434:333536375:2121829406:68:114189:2711:114:41415:246222316:4Rom 1:111:1316:71 Co 1:14:99:12512:282915:79 (2); 2 Co 1:111:51312:1112Gal 1:11719Eph 1:12:203:54:11Col 1:11 Th 2:71 Ti 1:12:72 Ti 1:111; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:11 Pe 1:12 Pe 1:13:2Jude 17Rev 2:218:2021:14

Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?

I can wait....

MJ already addressed your cherry-picking of the definition she posted. Now I will address your attempt to cherry-pick what I said. I NEVER said that the Twelve aren't apostles, which your jumble of verses seems to imply. I said that the Twelve are NOT the ONLY ones who can be rightly called apostles. (Go ahead, look up there. See? That's what I said.) By bolding just a section of my comment, you seem to intentionally ignore what else was said, just as was the case with MJ's definition. That's kinda scary, dude. Not to me...for you. You can't just play fast and loose that way with Scripture. I realize you think you are defending a principle, but you're really defending the indefensible. There is NOTHING in Acts 1 that ties the use of "apostle" as an exclusive concept or term to be forever and only associated with the Twelve. People who think or say there is are deluding themselves.

While others have in the interim posted similar points, I end this post with...

The NT does not restrict the term “apostle” to the Twelve selected by Jesus. In Heb. 3:1 Jesus himself is called “the apostle and high priest of our confession”; this fits with Jesus’ references to himself as the one “sent” by God (Matt. 15:24; Mark 9:37; Luke 9:48; John 3:17, 34; cf. Luke 10:22; Matt. 11:27). In Gal. 1:19 Paul implies that James, the brother of Jesus, was an apostle (cf. 1 Cor. 9:5), and in 1 Cor. 15:9 Paul refers to himself as an apostle (cf. 9:1; 2 Cor. 11:5; Gal. 1:1). In Acts 14:14 Luke refers to Barnabas and Paul as apostles, and in Rom. 16:7 Paul implies that Andronicus and Junias were apostles at Rome. (Perhaps the latter were husband and wife.)

Moser, P. K. (2000). Apostle. In D. N. Freedman, A. C. Myers & A. B. Beck (Eds.), Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (D. N. Freedman, A. C. Myers & A. B. Beck, Ed.) (78). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:26 PM

David, In short this I already knew but thanks all the same. But you still need to deal with the 4(5) verses that speak directly to "Apostleship" and what it states.

There is a difference.

Since you seem to think that this is just gibberish, then when you go to your respective church, walk up to your Pastor/preacher and greet him as 'Apostle so-so'. and listen to what he says, if he is a learned man - he may correct you. if not - no harm done.

{{EDIT: maybe a search for the "Qualifications of an Apostle" is in order..

The word ‘witness’ is applied almost exclusively to the apostles in Acts, though related terms are used in connection with the ministry of others. The apostles occupy a unique place in history as witnesses of Christ because of the time they spent with him, especially after his resurrection, and because of their direct commissioning by him. The narrative concerning the appointment of Matthias makes it clear that in Luke’s view such qualifications are critical for apostleship (1:21–26)......}}

 

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 33766
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:42 PM

Room4more:
Who said he was a Saint

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:45 PM

Thanks MJ, yes, we are all saints. maybe we should start referring to one another as Saint so-so, hmmm 'Saint Richard', does roll off the tongue smoothly....

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 33766
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:55 PM

Since I'm 1/4 Finnish and only 1/8 Irish, let's switch the conversation to the more important saint, St. Urho

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 10:57 PM

MJ. Smith:

Since I'm 1/4 Finnish and only 1/8 Irish, let's switch the conversation to the more important saint, St. Urho

oohhh lets not forget saint Nick  Tongue Tied

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 33766
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 11:00 PM

Room4more:
oohhh lets not forget saint Nick

Hmmm, my delightful mother-in-law is half-Greek, half-French ... I'll leave St. Nick for herWink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 11:12 PM

MJ. Smith:

Room4more:
oohhh lets not forget saint Nick

Hmmm, my delightful mother-in-law is half-Greek, half-French ... I'll leave St. Nick for herWink

Done.

hey I got some notes to finish...... I will probably be up a few more hours-spell check and all, I will check back. I am curious to read what david paul's searches and posts.

 

R4m

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 11:25 PM

Room4more:

David, In short this I already knew but thanks all the same. But you still need to deal with the 4(5) verses that speak directly to "Apostleship" and what it states.

There is a difference.

Since you seem to think that this is just gibberish, then when you go to your respective church, walk up to your Pastor/preacher and greet him as 'Apostle so-so'. and listen to what he says, if he is a learned man - he may correct you. if not - no harm done.

It is interesting that you posted what you said in your comment at the top of this page, because I was coming back here to address that very issue. In my opinion, based on the common AND the Biblical usage of the term "apostle", there is no good reason to capitalize the word (unless you are using it in the title of a book or some such). Do we call prophets the Prophet Isaiah, the Prophet Elijah, Jeremiah the Prophet, etc.? Rightfully, no. We speak of the prophet Daniel.

In the same way, I assert that it is a false concept to say there is a difference between "apostle" and "Apostle". This may buck many traditions, but we should speak of Peter the apostle and not of Paul the Apostle, and we should speak of the apostle Jacob (James). The only Apostle is Yeishuu`a, and yet even as I say that, there are some who don't bother capitalizing adjectives and pronouns associated with Him.

Regarding "(A)postleship", you are again infusing meaning into a term that it simply does not have. There is zero cause for concluding that the term carries anything that logically, much less necessarily, requires the capitalization of the role. Contrary to what centuries of blather may insist, apostle, like prophet, is NOT AN OFFICE, it is a burden...it is a role.

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 1
Joseph Towey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 16 2013 11:43 PM

"APOSTLE The title commonly used in the New Testament to denote the twelve closest disciples of Christ. Aside from the Twelve chosen by Christ (Acts 14:4; 2 Cor 8:23; Phil 2:25), the title was also used for Christ himself as the One sent by the Father (Heb 3:1), and for those sent by churches (Acts 1:21-22; 2 Cor 12:12; cf. Rom 15:19; Acts 5:12; 2 Pet 3:2). The existence of other apostles, however, in no way denigrated or compromised the unique place of the Twelve as the disciples whom Christ chose to be witnesses of the Resurrection and who were solemnly commissioned by the risen Jesus to proclaim the Gospel and to organize the Kingdom of God on earth" [emphasis added](CCC 765) (Hahn 2009, 58). 

St. Patrick, after returning from six years of captivity (among the pagans of Ireland), began his studies for the priesthood; was ordained by St. Germanus, Bishop of Auxerre; later became a bishop himself and was sent by Pope Celestine I to take the Gospel to Ireland. Therefore, he could be referred to as an apostle as his mission was "in the service of Jesus Christ" (Hahn 2009, 59).

Again, this does not in any way lessen the commission of the Twelve received directly from Christ.

Hahn, Scott. Catholic Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday, 2009. (accessed March 17, 2013).

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 12:06 AM

David, well yes and no;

In the one referral I gave the Scriptures are making it clear what the difference is and why. I do believe that takes precedence over what we want.

There is a Biblical common, and a distinctive, to what an 'Apostle' and apostle is/are: We are all apostles with the commission to carry the message, yet the Apostles were/are the Pillars of that message and with it came a special calling and commission, to wit we do not today.

There is no false concept when understanding the precept as laid out in the Scriptures, to wit I gave one referral. This does, of itself, give credence that there is a comparative difference and does make it clear as to wherein this lies.

I infuse nothing but based on one referral there does seem to be clear Scriptural evidence that the Scriptures state the difference, are we going to super-cede this by our lack of understanding or desire to be politically correct? yet we are all apostles in the Biblical common sense but not all are deemed by Scripture as Apostle's. I do agree that it is not an office, but a burden - well if that is what it is then I guess that is what it is; but I never thought so....at least not by way of Scripture.

As towards the proper form, well that leaves much to be desired, as towards Patrick, I read up on him many years ago and his 'apostleship' was given by the church - big difference. Why, well I leave that for you to discover.......

see already others are checking the credibility...Thank-you, Joseph[aka 117269].

 

R4m

 

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 1:50 AM

Room4more:

Thank-you, Joseph[aka 117269].

R4m

Is that out of 144000?

Wink

ASROCK x570 Creator, AMD R9 3950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, Asus Strix RTX 2080 ti, 2tb m.2 Seagate Firecuda SSD (x2) ...and other mechano-digital happiness.

"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not."

Posts 2853
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 4:51 AM

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,  (Eph 4:11)

  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, (Eph 2:20)

      And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. (1 Co 12:28–31)

The New King James



 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 9:13 AM

Of course one could embrace Room4More's definition (though somewhat troublesome theologically, since it immediately wipes out Paul, or if accepts Paul, also accepts anyone else with a claimed Jesus-vision). But more specifically it limits Jesus' evangelistic instructions to 'the 11' (some of whom, Matthew carefully points out, 'doubted').

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 611
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 9:47 AM


apostle (Gk., one who is sent) 1. One of the 12 disciples chosen by Christ: Peter, James, John, Andrew, Thomas, James the Less, Jude, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon, and Judas (replaced by Matthias). Paul claimed the title for himself on the basis of a direct commission from the risen Christ (Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:1) and used it also of James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19).

2. The highest of the five ecclesiastical offices or titles in the New Testament, the other four being prophet, teacher, evangelist, and pastor.

3. The leader of a first Christian mission to a country, such as: Patrick, the apostle of Ireland; Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of the Slavs; Frumentius, apostle of Abyssinians; Felix Naif, apostle of the Alps; Juan de Avila, apostle of Andalusia; Hubert, apostle of Ardennes; Gregory the Illuminator, apostle of Armenia; Jose de Anchieta, apostle of Brazil; Augustine, apostle of England; Denis, apostle of France; Willibrord, apostle of Frisians; Martin of Tours, apostle of Gaul; Paul, apostle to the Gentiles; Boniface, apostle of Germany; Columba, apostle of Scotland; King Stephen, apostle of Hungary; John Eliot, apostle to the Native Americans; Francis Xavier, apostle to the Indies; Ansgar, apostle to the North; Alonso de Barcena, apostle of Peru; Ninian, apostle to the Picts; James the Great, apostle of Spain; and David, apostle of Wales.


Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson’s new Christian dictionary: The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

God Bless

Graham

Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke

Posts 6728
Forum MVP
Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 9:51 AM

Why not run a topic guide on the word "apostle" and see what it yields?

Lynden Williams Communications

Posts 769
Alan Charles Gielczyk | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 10:19 AM

And for our next topic of argument, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 10:43 AM

Alan Charles Gielczyk:

And for our next topic of argument, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

As many as the Camels that travel through the eye of a needle.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 10:47 AM

Lynden Williams:

Why not run a topic guide on the word "apostle" and see what it yields?

That's a good idea, why not post your sorted results and make an educated comment........this way we can read of who are learning and who are, well lets just say present and at the back of the room snickering like.......

 

 

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Page 2 of 5 (95 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > | RSS