St, Patrick-who?

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Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 10:53 AM

DMB:

Of course one could embrace Room4More's definition (though somewhat troublesome theologically, since it immediately wipes out Paul, or if accepts Paul, also accepts anyone else with a claimed Jesus-vision). But more specifically it limits Jesus' evangelistic instructions to 'the 11' (some of whom, Matthew carefully points out, 'doubted').

Thanks for the comment. So you think that the Scriptures present troublesome theology [got to admit that makes things a little clearer for me about you].

 

 

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Ben Hein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 11:36 AM

I'd like to say two things:

1) Please keep your heart in check as you post, there is no need for us to get hasty and quarrelsome.

2) I thought the difference was between little a and big A apostle - Big A Apostle being those who have seen Christ (twelve minus Judas plus Matthias and then Paul), little a being...the rest of us.

Rev. Ben Hein

Shady Grove Presbyterian Church (PCA)

Reformed Theological Seminary, M.Div (2017)

www.shadygrovepca.org

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 11:38 AM

Ben Hein:

I'd like to say two things:

2) I thought the difference was between little a and big A apostle - Big A Apostle being those who have seen Christ (twelve minus Judas plus Matthias and then Paul), little a being...the rest of us.

You are absolutely correct. Thank-you Ben.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 11:38 AM

R4M, you are ignoring the obvious. The Scripture is the Word of God. It is not a handbook on English usage in the 21st century. It is quite possible for a word to have a technical or specialized use in Scripture and have broader usage outside Scripture.An example, I use the English word "word" for what is given to contestants in a spelling bee. I do not apply the same meaning when I read John 1:1. Everyone is doing a great job of responding to you without falling into an irrelevant theological discussion; I'm proud of the forums. But who da thunk the title of a Logos collection would generate 40+ posts?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 11:46 AM

MJ. Smith:

R4M, you are ignoring the obvious. The Scripture is the Word of God. It is not a handbook on English usage in the 21st century. It is quite possible for a word to have a technical or specialized use in Scripture and have broader usage outside Scripture.An example, I use the English word "word" for what is given to contestants in a spelling bee. I do not apply the same meaning when I read John 1:1. Everyone is doing a great job of responding to you without falling into an irrelevant theological discussion; I'm proud of the forums.

Thanks, but John 1;1 is an entirely different subject/topic all to itself. Altho, it would be an interesting theological discussion.

Currently we are dealing with the simplification to which the Scriptures, by God's design, designate the difference between an Apostle and an apostle is/are.

Really the subject is not that difficult to understand by way of the Scriptures, there is a Designated group that were the Apostle's and then there is the rest who are all apostles.....why is that hard to grasp by such learned and knowledgeable people?

R4m.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 12:01 PM

I think I'm starting to understand Room4More's point.  It's not so obvious in the english translations, but if you look at the greek manuscripts, it's clearly different (the first one being in the gospels and some of Paul's text; the lower one being 'the others').

..

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 3:04 PM

Room4more:
why is that hard to grasp by such learned and knowledgeable people?

Your point has been understood from the beginning. But 1st century Greek is not a style manual for 21st century English. The capitalization rules for titles are not the same as for general prose in 21st century English. Logos uses the capital in 2 ways in the product page you referenced:

  1. as part of a product title
  2. once as a quotation where I would assume they are matching the source of the quote.

Neither of these uses implies anything about how Logos would handle the term in standard prose (in contrast to in a title).

So the direct answer to your question is: "Your point is easily grasped. Thank you for considering us learned and knowledgeable. Nonetheless, I find your point, while accurate, inapplicable to the Logos product page."

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1872
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 4:00 PM

The earliest Greek manuscripts we have are the Uncials and Papyri.  While admittedly not an expert in them, my understanding is that they did not have separate UPPER and lower cases.  Therefore, it seems to be a huge stretch to say that biblically the Twelve are Apostles, yet Paul is only an apostle.  The proposed distinction seems based on no textual difference, and, at best seems to be fitting our concepts into the biblical text, IMHO.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 5:26 PM

DMB:

I think I'm starting to understand Room4More's point.  It's not so obvious in the english translations, but if you look at the greek manuscripts, it's clearly different (the first one being in the gospels and some of Paul's text; the lower one being 'the others').

..

Go here http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit Query&book=37&lid=en&side=r&zoomSlider=0 (I think you'll need to copy the URL including the "slider" option then drag the slider to ~ the 3rd detent from the top and move the page to the upper left corner.  You will see

ΠΑΥΛΟϹΔΟΥΛΟϹΙΥ̅
ΧΥ̅ΚΛΗΤΟϹΑΠΟϹΤο
ΛΟϹ…

The early mss were uncials, i.e., all letters were of one size—capitals.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 5:40 PM

Things one learns, creating the 'Would you believe ...?' (Get Smart) .... most of my text editors won't even let you differentiate the greek letters. Notepad was the worst.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 234
Ben Hein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 5:57 PM

George Somsel:

DMB:

I think I'm starting to understand Room4More's point.  It's not so obvious in the english translations, but if you look at the greek manuscripts, it's clearly different (the first one being in the gospels and some of Paul's text; the lower one being 'the others').

..

Go here http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit Query&book=37&lid=en&side=r&zoomSlider=0 (I think you'll need to copy the URL including the "slider" option then drag the slider to ~ the 3rd detent from the top and move the page to the upper left corner.  You will see

ΠΑΥΛΟϹΔΟΥΛΟϹΙΥ̅
ΧΥ̅ΚΛΗΤΟϹΑΠΟϹΤο
ΛΟϹ…

The early mss were uncials, i.e., all letters were of one size—capitals.

Someone didn't read the sarcasm :-p

Rev. Ben Hein

Shady Grove Presbyterian Church (PCA)

Reformed Theological Seminary, M.Div (2017)

www.shadygrovepca.org

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 6:15 PM

George is going to kill me one of these days. Probably when he reaches 40.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 6:31 PM

DMB:

George is going to kill me one of these days. Probably when he reaches 40.

It'll never happen.  I may kill you, but I'll never reach 40.  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2903
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 6:59 PM

Room4more:

An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.

 

You either should throw the dictionary that gave you this definition away or throw your New Testament away, because the New Testament names others as also being apostles.

For example, Acts 14:14 names Barnabas, and there are others.  So the word apostle may be rightly applied to others besides the original 12 disciples.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 2903
Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 7:03 PM

Room4more:

Ben Hein:

I'd like to say two things:

2) I thought the difference was between little a and big A apostle - Big A Apostle being those who have seen Christ (twelve minus Judas plus Matthias and then Paul), little a being...the rest of us.

You are absolutely correct. Thank-you Ben.

 

Of course, Scripture never says there is a difference between Big "A" and Little "a" apostles, does it?  Even if you assume that, why do you also assume the book about St. Patrick is calling him a  Big "A" apostle?  You do a lot of assuming.

 

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Mar 17 2013 9:32 PM

Michael Childs:

Of course, Scripture never says there is a difference between Big "A" and Little "a" apostles, does it?  Even if you assume that, why do you also assume the book about St. Patrick is calling him a  Big "A" apostle?  You do a lot of assuming.

I'll say! And with all of this assuming and insisting going on, I'm worried it's resulting in Icy Jesus! Surprise

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Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 2:23 AM

DMB:

Of course one could embrace Room4More's definition (though somewhat troublesome theologically, since it immediately wipes out Paul, or if accepts Paul, also accepts anyone else with a claimed Jesus-vision). But more specifically it limits Jesus' evangelistic instructions to 'the 11' (some of whom, Matthew carefully points out, 'doubted').

Funny, but can Paul even claim he had a "Jesus-vision"...seeing as he has smacked BLIND?? And "could see nothing"? Hmmm...

However, he was clearly given tasks to perform and a role to fulfill. He WAS sent...so he IS an apostle, even if he couldn't see who and didn't know who He was calling Lord.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 2:38 AM

I was sent by my conference to pastor the Good News Church, does that make me an apostle Room4more? Angel Just yanking your chain. But I am a saint. 1 Cor. 1:2 

Lynden Williams Communications

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 5:43 AM

Well Interesting posts during my absence, granted.

So without further ado:

-Thanks, MJ;

-Ken, I think that if you were to peruse the other (4)four verse that deal w/being an Apostle[qualifications] you would read that Paul was not just another apostle;

-DMB, Did I ever mention the original text, hhmm don’t think so, but it would be a grand event if the Logos Resources were used to compare the text –vs- English[transliteration]. So the capitalization of any original text is moot. [Thank-you {Saint}Apostle George for the clarification];

-M.Childs, when did I say that I used a dictionary? It was merely to get your attention. Yes we are aware of Barnabas and I do believe that he was briefly mentioned and discussed, but if there is more that you would like to add, I would like to read it;

-It is true that there is no differentiation of capitalization in the earliest manuscripts, nor, is there the same in the english transliterations. My point of using the “A” –vs- the “a” other than to be emphatic, is to draw your attention to the fact that within the Scriptures there is particularity in the application, especially in regards to the Twelve(+1)and the rest of us in the development of the early churches. Namely in the sense that there are common and then there are speciality.

-Thence, any assumptions are based solely upon the reader and the intentions of the same…..

But, if we so choose to say that we are of equal standing amongst the Twelve(+1), then it begs the question: Where were you standing during the Crucifixtion? Also, How could you have been part of the other 500 then and still be around today? By choosing the equality - you put yourself in a very distinguished group and some verification should be rendered on your part…..

We are all sent, and clearly we can all be identified as apostle’s in the commonality of our message. Also, our message is not new, whereas in the early days, IT WAS……

R4m.

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 6:45 AM

David Paul:

However, he was clearly given tasks to perform and a role to fulfill. He WAS sent...so he IS an apostle, even if he couldn't see who and didn't know who He was calling Lord.

  The word αʼπόστολος involves more than simply being sent.  If you check LSJ on the word, you will see that the primary definition is that of being a messenger or ambassador, not simply with being sent.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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