St, Patrick-who?

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Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 8:07 AM

It's interesting that probably 99% of the thread participants pretty much agree with each other (not saying correct/incorrect).

But George's comment on LSJ is also interesting. As noted earlier, I'm deep into the Gospel of Nicodemas or its alter-ego name 'Acts of Pilate'.  It reads similar to a mystery novel (Nancy Drew), and the unreasonable jews are doing their absolutely evil-best to try to get Jesus executed. Pilate's not buying it.

What's worse, inanimate objects near Pilate's seat of judgment are busily bowing to Jesus, of course enraging the jewish crowd.

At one point Jesus is asked to 'step outside' while the discussion boils over on why inanimate objects are bowing to Jesus. He is invited to step back in to see if the inanimate objects bow again, while in the hands of the jews.

At this point, the person retrieving Jesus lays down cloth for Jesus to step on as he enters. Of course this really maddens the crowd.

They say (this is the point, and not a direct quote): 'You sent a messenger! You should have sent a herald!!'  (Implication being Jesus is regnal.)

Gospel of Nicodemas 'dates' to maybe the 6th century (e.g. scholars don't have data to move earlier). So (1) it'd be nice to have a greek lexicon for the church-fathers period (hint-hint on the pre-pub), and (2) did GospelNico reflect 'messenger' per the NT usage or common usage?

Logos Blog on a late-greek lexicon: http://blog.logos.com/2013/02/learn-how-greek-developed-after-the-new-testament/ 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 8:21 AM

DMB:

Gospel of Nicodemas 'dates' to maybe the 6th century (e.g. scholars don't have data to move earlier). So (1) it'd be nice to have a greek lexicon for the church-fathers period (hint-hint on the pre-pub)

  http://www.amazon.com/Patristic-Greek-Lexicon-G-Lampe/dp/019864213X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363620011&sr=1-1&keywords=patristic+lexicon

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 8:33 AM

DMB:

But George's comment on LSJ is also interesting. As noted earlier, I'm deep into the Gospel of Nicodemas or its alter-ego name 'Acts of Pilate'.  It reads similar to a mystery novel (Nancy Drew), and the unreasonable jews are doing their absolutely evil-best to try to get Jesus executed. Pilate's not buying it.

  Not only the word ἀπόστολος but also the word πρεσβύτερος which is usually translated as "elder" in the NT.  Note Xenophon's use of the related verbal form  

 ὁ δὲ Κλέαρχος ταῦτα ὑπήγετο βουλόμενος καὶ αὐτὸν τὸν παρὰ βασιλέως πρεσβεύοντα συμβουλεῦσαι μὴ παραδοῦναι τὰ ὅπλα, ὅπως εὐέλπιδες μᾶλλον εἶεν οἱ Ἕλληνες. Φαλῖνος δὲ ὑποστρέψας παρὰ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ εἶπεν·

 Now Clearchus was making this crafty suggestion in the hope that the very man who was acting as the King's ambassador might advise them not to give up their arms, and that thus the Greeks might be made more hopeful. But, contrary to his expectation, Phalinus also made a crafty turn, and said:

Xenophon, Anabasis 2.1.18 (<logosres:xenanabgk;ref=Xenophon.Xen.,_Anab._2.1.18;off=-308>)

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 9:03 AM

George Somsel:

Not only the word ἀπόστολος but also the word πρεσβύτερος which is usually translated as "elder" in the NT.  Note Xenophon's use of the related verbal form  

 ὁ δὲ Κλέαρχος ταῦτα ὑπήγετο βουλόμενος καὶ αὐτὸν τὸν παρὰ βασιλέως πρεσβεύοντα συμβουλεῦσαι μὴ παραδοῦναι τὰ ὅπλα, ὅπως εὐέλπιδες μᾶλλον εἶεν οἱ Ἕλληνες. Φαλῖνος δὲ ὑποστρέψας παρὰ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ εἶπεν·

 Now Clearchus was making this crafty suggestion in the hope that the very man who was acting as the King's ambassador might advise them not to give up their arms, and that thus the Greeks might be made more hopeful. But, contrary to his expectation, Phalinus also made a crafty turn, and said:

Xenophon, Anabasis 2.1.18 (<logosres:xenanabgk;ref=Xenophon.Xen.,_Anab._2.1.18;off=-308>)

As always, Bro.{saint/apostle} George, reaches over and grabs the books on the other side of the room...and shows another avenue not yet mentioned.

Thank-you.

R4m

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 11433
DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 9:15 AM

George's 'elder' as 'ambassador' is again interesting. Very similar to older Japanese usage.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 9:17 AM

George Somsel:

David Paul:

However, he was clearly given tasks to perform and a role to fulfill. He WAS sent...so he IS an apostle, even if he couldn't see who and didn't know who He was calling Lord.

  The word αʼπόστολος involves more than simply being sent.  If you check LSJ on the word, you will see that the primary definition is that of being a messenger or ambassador, not simply with being sent.

Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".

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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 9:26 AM

David Paul:

Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".

  Are you thinking of πέμπω?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 9:29 AM

George Somsel:

David Paul:

Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".

  Are you thinking of πέμπω?

Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head. Stick out tongue

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 10:17 AM

David Paul:

George Somsel:

David Paul:

Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".

  Are you thinking of πέμπω?

Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head. Stick out tongue

It's easy to get -stello [στελλο] and -pempo  [πεμπο] confused..../?

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 10:32 AM

Room4more:

David Paul:

George Somsel:

David Paul:

Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".

  Are you thinking of πέμπω?

Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head. Stick out tongue

It's easy to get -stello [στελλο] and -pempo  [πεμπο] confused..../?

15.66

πέμπωa; ἀποστέλλωa; ἀπολύωb: to cause someone to depart for a particular purpose—‘to send.’

Louw, Johannes P. and Eugene Albert Nida. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York: United Bible Societies, 1996.

It's the same semantic domain.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 10:48 AM

George Somsel:

15.66

πέμπωa; ἀποστέλλωa; ἀπολύωb: to cause someone to depart for a particular purpose—‘to send.’

Louw, Johannes P. and Eugene Albert Nida. Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York: United Bible Societies, 1996.

It's the same semantic domain.

[ppsssttt....i know.. ssshhh]

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 11:24 AM

Maybe they should look up:

ἀποστολή, ῆς, ἡ [apostleship] [care to help them Bro{saint/apostle} George.....?]

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 6:54 PM

So that no one can dispute that Paul misunderstood His calling and appointment of himself and the Twelve, here's a little something to help clear up that there are common and there are speciality:

δοκῶ γάρ, ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους, ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις.   For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.  

 

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Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 18 2013 7:00 PM

Room4more:

So that no one can dispute that Paul misunderstood His calling and appointment of himself and the Twelve, here's a little something to help clear up that there are common and there are speciality:

δοκῶ γάρ, ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀποστόλους ἐσχάτους ἀπέδειξεν ὡς ἐπιθανατίους, ὅτι θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις καὶ ἀνθρώποις.   For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels, and to men.  

Paul is a special apostle, all right...

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Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 19 2013 12:20 AM

Room4more:

David Paul:

George Somsel:

David Paul:

Yes, of course. You are correct. However, the word is used as a synonym and in conjunction with the word (is it pepto?--not on my computer now) that means "to send".

  Are you thinking of πέμπω?

Yes...thanks. I couldn't get the pink stuff out of my head. Stick out tongue

It's easy to get -stello [στελλο] and -pempo  [πεμπο] confused..../?

Considering the way they are used in Scripture...yep.

3992. πέμπω pémpō; fut. pémpsō. To dispatch, send, thrust out. (I) Of persons, meaning to cause to go. (A) Generally with the acc. (Matt. 22:7; Acts 25:25; Phil. 2:23); followed by the acc. and dat. of person to whom (1 Cor. 4:17; Phil. 2:19); with eis (1519), unto, and the acc. of place (Matt. 2:8; Mark 5:12, “into them”; Eph. 6:22; Col. 4:8). (B) Specifically of messengers, agents, ambassadors, with the acc. (Matt. 11:2; Luke 16:24; John 1:22; 13:16; 1 Thess. 3:2); hoi pemphthéntes, those sent, the messengers (Luke 7:10); eis (1519), unto, with the acc. of place (Luke 16:27; Acts 15:22); with the inf. of purpose (1 Cor. 16:3; Rev. 22:16); with the acc. of person implied followed by eis with the inf. of purpose (1 Thess. 3:5, “I sent to know”); with the acc. of place (Acts 10:32; 20:17); prós (4314), toward, with the acc. (Luke 4:26; Acts 10:33; 15:25; 19:31; 23:30; 1 Pet. 2:14); the aor. part. pémpsas before a finite verb, implying that one does a thing by an agent or messenger (Matt. 14:10, “and having sent he beheaded John” [a.t. {cf. Mark 6:27}]). Spoken of teachers; with the inf., “ambassadors sent from God” (a.t.) or in His name, e.g., John the Baptist (John 1:33, “he that sent me to baptize”); Jesus, as sent from God (John 4:34; 5:23, 24; 6:38ff.; 7:16, 28; Rom. 8:3); the Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7); the apostles, as sent out by Jesus (John 13:20; Jn. 20:21).

  Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament, electronic ed. (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993). G3992.

In particular, notice the thrust of that last verse (Jn. 20:2)..."as [i.e. in the same way] one sends another, that second one sends others". Not only are the two "sends" virtually identical in appearance (how they are used), but the two sendings are likened to each other ("as")!

Only thing is...in spite of being likened to each other, the two semantically identical "sends" are two DIFFERENT "sends". The first one is ἀποστέλλω and the second is πέμπω. That makes the Apostles...not apostello!!!   Where's the "speciality" now?!?! Surprise

Perhaps we should be referring to Pemp Paul?? Stick out tongue

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 19 2013 7:40 AM

David Paul:

Considering the way they are used in Scripture...yep.

3992. πέμπω pémpō; fut. pémpsō. To dispatch, send, thrust out. (I) Of persons, meaning to cause to go. (A) Generally with the acc. (Matt. 22:7; Acts 25:25; Phil. 2:23); followed by the acc. and dat. of person to whom (1 Cor. 4:17; Phil. 2:19); with eis (1519), unto, and the acc. of place (Matt. 2:8; Mark 5:12, “into them”; Eph. 6:22; Col. 4:8). (B) Specifically of messengers, agents, ambassadors, with the acc. (Matt. 11:2; Luke 16:24; John 1:22; 13:16; 1 Thess. 3:2); hoi pemphthéntes, those sent, the messengers (Luke 7:10); eis (1519), unto, with the acc. of place (Luke 16:27; Acts 15:22); with the inf. of purpose (1 Cor. 16:3; Rev. 22:16); with the acc. of person implied followed by eis with the inf. of purpose (1 Thess. 3:5, “I sent to know”); with the acc. of place (Acts 10:32; 20:17); prós (4314), toward, with the acc. (Luke 4:26; Acts 10:33; 15:25; 19:31; 23:30; 1 Pet. 2:14); the aor. part. pémpsas before a finite verb, implying that one does a thing by an agent or messenger (Matt. 14:10, “and having sent he beheaded John” [a.t. {cf. Mark 6:27}]). Spoken of teachers; with the inf., “ambassadors sent from God” (a.t.) or in His name, e.g., John the Baptist (John 1:33, “he that sent me to baptize”); Jesus, as sent from God (John 4:34; 5:23, 24; 6:38ff.; 7:16, 28; Rom. 8:3); the Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7); the apostles, as sent out by Jesus (John 13:20; Jn. 20:21).

  Spiros Zodhiates, The Complete Word Study Dictionary : New Testament, electronic ed. (Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers, 2000, c1992, c1993). G3992.

In particular, notice the thrust of that last verse (Jn. 20:2)..."as [i.e. in the same way] one sends another, that second one sends others". Not only are the two "sends" virtually identical in appearance (how they are used), but the two sendings are likened to each other ("as")!

Only thing is...in spite of being likened to each other, the two semantically identical "sends" are two DIFFERENT "sends". The first one is ἀποστέλλω and the second is πέμπω. That makes the Apostles...not apostello!!!   Where's the "speciality" now?!?! Surprise

Perhaps we should be referring to Pemp Paul?? Stick out tongue

I suspect that if you cannot grasp the difference in your own writ, then I guess that you just can not grasp the difference.........

But for now that's fine, you've done the homework and someday you will be reading something  - then -  click! it will hit you, and you will grasp and understand the difference......

Thanks for the comments. 

R4m.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 5430
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 19 2013 7:49 AM

Sounds like the explanation that someone would give who says they "see" the difference...but never really gets around to explaining what the difference is.

Your "evidence" up to now has been oblique implications and fiat assertions...the bulk of which constitute non-sequiter.

The words are used interchangeably--face it.

Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".

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Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 19 2013 8:54 AM

David Paul:

Sounds like the explanation that someone would give who says they "see" the difference...but never really gets around to explaining what the difference is.

Your "evidence" up to now has been oblique implications and fiat assertions...the bulk of which constitute non-sequiter.

The words are used interchangeably--face it.

Nope; the evidence is all there. I went through this many years ago, and believe me when I say, one day it will Click! and you will mentally recall this conversation and all the research[reading] you have done...

Adding, that if God had wanted the words to be πέμπω instead of ἀποστέλλω [vice-vers] it would have been so....but - it isn't. Even the verse Jn20.21 uses the two, that in and of itself should generate those brain gears a workin', going so far as to say that the Apostle's[at a later date] knew within themselves what the difference is/was. So if they understood and knew.......

 

David Paul:

Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".

Nope, totally different ball-game.

Thanks again for the comments.

R4m.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 1649
Room4more | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 19 2013 3:58 PM

David Paul:

Next, you'll be telling us there is a difference between "logos" & "rhayma".

Not trying to be rude, but check your spelling, or perhaps your pronunciation hray'-mah  ῥῆμα [ r u attempting to get to the root or a cognate--?]  ? I think I know what you are wanting to say,  but not sure of your spelling or the way you are saying it.....

R4m.

DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 19 2013 4:23 PM

Ben Hein:
1) Please keep your heart in check as you post, there is no need for us to get hasty and quarrelsome.

Amen, brother Ben.YesCool

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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