ESV & Logos

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Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Dec 14 2009 2:55 AM

What is with Logos and the ESV? Every video it is used as the preferred Bible translation (not to mention I still cant remove it in the exegetical guide). Is there a reason why it is always used?

 

( I mean this with a fair amount of jest, but I am also curious as to why it is always used).

Posts 1680
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 4:18 AM

MarkStevens:

What is with Logos and the ESV? Every video it is used as the preferred Bible translation (not to mention I still cant remove it in the exegetical guide). Is there a reason why it is always used?

I'll have an (uninformed) guess, Mark.

For serious Bible study related to the original languages, you want a translation that's quite literal, word-for-word rather than the dynamic-equivalence approach of The Message (or even NIV.) Like the old ASV or NASB, the ESV fits that style, and so seems a fairly natural choice for working with inter-linears etc.

It also makes sense to me to provide some consistency in the examples, and it's in all the base packages. (Just my 2c.)

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 4:40 AM

Allen Browne:
For serious Bible study related to the original languages, you want a translation that's quite literal, word-for-word rather than the dynamic-equivalence approach of The Message (or even NIV.) Like the old ASV or NASB, the ESV fits that style, and so seems a fairly natural choice for working with inter-linears etc.

Well the ESV might be a word for word translation but in my opinion it isn't very accurate! Why not use the NRSV? It is the premier word for word translation.

The naughty part of me does wonder if it has anything to do with making a point to Zondervan.....Stick out tongue

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 4:43 AM

MarkStevens:
Well the ESV might be a word for word translation but in my opinion it isn't very accurate! Why not use the NRSV? It is the premier word for word translation.

Really? I thought the ESV was the spiritual successor to the NRSV... Why do you think its inaccurate?

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 4:57 AM

Jon Rumble:
Really? I thought the ESV was the spiritual successor to the NRSV... Why do you think its inaccurate?

There  is absolutely no relationship between the two! The two have completely different translation committees.

Jon I would love to discuss what I don't like (and it is personal - I have no problem for the most part with the translation) but here is the place and it causes the kind of divisions between Christians not seen since the Calvinist/Arminianism debate in seminary! Wink My personal preference is for gender inclusive so i would like to be able to choose that option in my exegetical guide.

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 4:59 AM

Which part of the exegetical guide keeps using the ESV for you?

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 5:18 AM

Philip Spitzer:

Which part of the exegetical guide keeps using the ESV for you?

I use NA27 as my preferred NT text in the exegetical guide, It automatically chooses the ESV as the interlinear...much to my annoyance! Apparently this can't be changed. I actually despise the translation but tell very few people (so please keep it to yourself). Actually that is unfair, I despise all of the ESV users who criticise and spread falsities about the TNIV which leaves me with a negative feeling toward the ESV...actually it is quite painful and I don't like to talk about it! Wink

 

Posts 687
Jon | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 5:31 AM

MarkStevens:
I despise all of the ESV users who criticise and spread falsities about the TNIV

Fair enough... Christians can be so annoying Big Smile

I tend to use the TNIV for reading and the ESV for study; in the print versions it carries gender neutral language in the margin where appropriate.

I think there is a relationship between ESV and NRSV though as I they're both revisions of the RSV; and doing compare versions (cluster graph in L4) they're often more similar to each other than anything else...

Re: the exegetical guide use of the ESV, do you have another English version with interlinear prioritised higher?

Posts 3810
spitzerpl | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 6:15 AM

MarkStevens:
I use NA27 as my preferred NT text in the exegetical guide, It automatically chooses the ESV as the interlinear...much to my annoyance! Apparently this can't be changed.

I just prioritized the NRSV to the top of the list (typically its the NKJV...did I just make you spew :-)) and then ran an exegetical guide. It used the NRSV.

Posts 198
Bryan Brodess | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 7:11 AM

What is wrong with the ESV? I have not studied it much, I was planning on starting to use it in my study's.

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 7:33 AM

 

MarkStevens:

What is with Logos and the ESV? Every video it is used as the preferred Bible translation (not to mention I still cant remove it in the exegetical guide). Is there a reason why it is always used?

( I mean this with a fair amount of jest, but I am also curious as to why it is always used).

 

Good question. I'll give it a shot.

The ESV has a different translation goal than the TNIV.

The translation philosophy behind the TNIV (as well as NIV, NLT and others) is to be dynamically equivalent to the original text. This results in a concept for concept translation.

Although it is technically impossible to be completely literal in a translation, the ESV seeks to more of a word for word or idiom for idiom translation (NASB also attempts this).

Regardless of preferences and debates on the appropriateness of gender inclusive language, the more literal translations (like NASB and ESV) are more useful as an Interlinear text because the resulting translations are a closer reflection to the actual grammatical constructions in the original text (not perfect just closer than those who explicitly embrace dynamic equivalence).

Compare for instance, Acts 15:36 in ESV and TNIV where the TNIV translates adelphos as believers. While this might fit the dynamic equivalent goals of translating the concept in a gender inclusive way, it is not very helpful as a reverse interlinear when you are trying to find all the occurrences of brother. There is no way adelphos can ever be rendered as "believer".

Therefore, there are technical reasons to use the ESV as a preferred Bible when much of the functionality of the software is dependent upon reverse interlinears.

Logos is currently developing reverse interlinears of the NIV and NLT (both dynamic equivalence translations) but they developed the more literal translations first for technical reasons.

 

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 7:39 AM

Russ Quinn:

The translation philosophy behind the TNIV (as well as NIV, NLT and others) is to be dynamically equivalent to the original text. This results in a concept for concept translation.

Although it is technically impossible to be completely literal in a translation, the ESV seeks to more of a word for word or idiom for idiom translation (NASB also attempts this).

It is one of the reasons that I study out of NASB and teach/preach out of NIV. The dynamic and literal translations work together to give a more complete understanding.

 

 

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 12:54 PM

Philip Spitzer:
I just prioritized the NRSV to the top of the list (typically its the NKJV...did I just make you spew :-)) and then ran an exegetical guide. It used the NRSV

LOL! The NKJV is my sentimental favourite because it was the first translation I ever purchased. I have moved the ESV to the lowest depths of prioritisation and it still uses it. I am at home at the moment and my 'logos computer' is at work so I will check it again when I get in.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 12:57 PM

Bryan Brodess:
What is wrong with the ESV? I have not studied it much, I was planning on starting to use it in my study'

Where do I begin?!?!  If you are interested Ben Witherington has some posts on his concerns (not that I agree with them all). You could also try Mounce's website for a counter argument.  

 

Posts 740
Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 1:03 PM

Remember also that you can hide a resource. If you think you will never use the ESV for anything, just hide it in the program settings. I have done this with several things like the Woman's Study Bible and Young's Literal Translation. Works great!

Jerry

iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.

Posts 439
Mark Stevens | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 1:04 PM

Jon Rumble:
I tend to use the TNIV for reading and the ESV for study; in the print versions it carries gender neutral language in the margin where appropriate

Same, except I use the NRSV for English bible study and TNIV for preaching.

 

Jon Rumble:
I think there is a relationship between ESV and NRSV though as I they're both revisions of the RSV

I see what you are saying but I think the NRSV people would not see the two as being related...

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 1:20 PM

MarkStevens:

Where do I begin?!?! 

Begin somewhere because so far I have simply seen character defamation of the ESV and no arguments

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 491
R. Mansfield | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 1:26 PM

Russ Quinn:

The translation philosophy behind the TNIV (as well as NIV, NLT and others) is to be dynamically equivalent to the original text. This results in a concept for concept translation.

Not to quibble too much, Russ, but technically the NIV & TNIV are not dynamic equivalent translations, but rather "median" translations, incorporating the best of both formal and dynamic equivalent methods. 

From Fee & Strauss' How to Choose a Translation for All Its Worth:

"Notice that in addition to formal and functional [i.e. dynamic] versions we have introduced a third category, mediating, which represents a middle ground between these two. Mediating versions like the TNIV, NIV, NAB, HCSB, and NET are sometimes more literal, sometimes more idiomatic, seeking to maintain a balance between form and function."

I personally favor median translations, especially for public use, over formal equivalent translations.

RMansfield@mac.com
http://thislamp.com 
youtube.com/user/rfmansfield
twitter/thislamp
facebook.com/rmansfield

Posts 709
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 1:30 PM

MarkStevens:

Same, except I use the NRSV for English bible study and TNIV for preaching.

 

The NRSV suffers from the same problems as the TNIV when it comes to using it as an interlinear. See Acts 15:36, 40; 16:2, 40 for just a few examples where neither the TNIV or NRSV can be trusted to accurately render the underlying Greek words. Rendering adelphos as "believers" instead of "brothers" skews search results on many levels.

 

Jon Rumble:
I think there is a relationship between ESV and NRSV though as I they're both revisions of the RSV

That is right. The ESV committee took the RSV of 1971 as a starting point not the NRSV of 1989.

The NRSV was theologically controversial for reasons beyond gender inclusiveness. Most famously it replaced "virgin" with "young woman" in Isaiah 7:14. This is something that went beyond the other gender inclusive translations. TNIV and NLT both use "virgin".

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 14 2009 1:32 PM

MarkStevens:

What is with Logos and the ESV? Every video it is used as the preferred Bible translation (not to mention I still cant remove it in the exegetical guide). Is there a reason why it is always used?

 

( I mean this with a fair amount of jest, but I am also curious as to why it is always used).

I don't get it either. I find the ESV to be very, very close to the NRSV much of the time (except for the gender inclusive aspect, of course).

But I think there are at least two reasons Logos uses the ESV reverse interlinear in its videos: First the ESV was one of the first modern translations from which Logos created a reverse interlinear. Second, the ESV is being heavily promoted in the US as a successor to the RSV for groups who do not like the gender-inclusiveness of the NRSV, nor the dynamic equivalence philosophy of the NIV.

In L3 I had the NRSV as my preferred reverse interlinear. I don't know how to change this setting in Logos4, and don't believe it's possible at this time.

 

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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