A new "textual criticism" report ... please.

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Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, May 21 2013 12:44 AM

I am not sure this is the right thread for this observation, but I am sure someone can point out where I should have posted it, if it is not.

I suspect that I am like many people who muddle through a little Greek to be able to make use of Logos resources which work with the Greek language, but have never had to master the critical apparatus ... especially as it seems so cryptic ... having to be squeezed into a small space at the bottom of the page ... and because there are so many manuscripts that only someone who steeps themselves in textual criticism have any hope of remembering which funny symbol means which text, and what the significance of that given text is, anyway.

It seems to me that Logos is ideally placed to produce a "textual critical" report of any selected verse or paragraph ... where the textual variants are spelt out in full, and our commentaries are mined for pertinent textual critical arguments ... and there is a nice graphic tree (or something) which situates the various variants in the different textual families, and which spells out which kinds of mistakes are most common in that text, e.t.c. This could really open up the whole mysterious field of textual criticism to a wider range of Bible users, and help put Logos right at the forefront of textual criticism ... and probably in the long term, free it from being a slave to the textual apparatus of the NA.

Who thinks something like this is a next logical step for Logos to pursue, given how they have supported original language work in the past?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 1:34 AM

While I would not place this as my next priority, I can see real value in this suggestion. However, I would want it to supplement a stronger presence of original manuscript reproductions with text analysis/comparison tools.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 1:36 AM

this is a great ideal. 

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 3:01 AM

Yes, this would be a major advance for Logos. I think they should consider it.

Yes

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Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 4:10 AM

Yes

I second that Rosie. 

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Simon Pleasants | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 4:11 AM

I think it's an excellent idea. I've yet to master the critical apparatus, so anything that would help me interpret it would be a great help.

"Upon a life I did not live, Upon a death I did not die, Another's life, another's death, I stake my whole eternity"

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André Kamphuis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 5:18 AM

Hi Simon, are you aware of this resource: http://www.logos.com/product/17844/a-textual-guide-to-the-greek-new-testament?

It's a simplified version of http://www.logos.com/product/2190/a-textual-commentary-on-the-greek-new-testament

I realise that this doesn't cover all your good ideas, but for the time being, it might help some people for whom the apparatus is a bit too overwhelming.

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Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 6:01 AM

Best new feature idea I've heard in a while. Make it so!

Yes Yes Yes

-Donnie

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Paul-C | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 6:17 AM

Nice suggestion! +1 Yes

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 6:24 AM

Donnie Hale:

Best new feature idea I've heard in a while. Make it so!

Yes Yes Yes

-Donnie

Aye, aye, captain.

george
gfsomsel

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 6:43 AM

Sounds like an excellent suggestion.

Now if Logos would also provide access to the CNTTS Database along the way to this goal... Sure seems there would be direct overlap.

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 9:14 AM

Mark Smith:

Sounds like an excellent suggestion.

Now if Logos would also provide access to the CNTTS Database along the way to this goal... Sure seems there would be direct overlap.

Yes, the easiest way to take a huge step towards implementing this suggestion would be adding the CNTTS critical apparatus... it would be a very welcome addition to Logos!

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 12:01 PM

Big inducement for Logos 6.0. But, would love to see it sooner. Super idea!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 222
Justin Cofer | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 12:07 PM

Beloved:

Big inducement for Logos 6.0. But, would love to see it sooner. Super idea!

yes .... absolutely .... maybe a visual timechart showing what century of a particular manuscript

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 4:39 PM

Justin Cofer:
maybe a visual timechart showing what century of a particular manuscript

This comment started me thinking. From a design aspect, where would this report fit? Well I said, the obvious answer is the "Exegetical Report." And to support this observation I ran a "Search" (Text criticism WITHIN 7 words exeget*) and it returned nearly 6,000 hits. Here's one of my favorites: 

 "Ideally, exegesis involves the analysis of the biblical text in the language of its original or earliest available form,"

Stuart, D. (1992). Exegesis. In D. N. Freedman (Ed.), . Vol. 2: The Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary (D. N. Freedman, Ed.) (682). New York: Doubleday. 

I wish Bob would chime in and discuss the do-ability of this.

I'm aware that competitors already have this feature and CNTTS NT; thus there are models from which to build a Logos version. Perhaps an entry on User Voice is in order to measure support for this feature. The corporate mind approves of this approach. This in addition to what has already been done by posting this excellent idea, would be the shortest route to implementation.

Stephen Edward Paynter:
I am not sure this is the right thread for this observation, but I am sure someone can point out where I should have posted it

I offer in light of this preface.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 21 2013 11:59 PM

Beloved:

Perhaps an entry on User Voice is in order to measure support for this feature.

The entry for the CNTTS is here:

https://prepub.uservoice.com/forums/183407-general/suggestions/3791706-cntts-nt-critical-apparatus

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 5:03 AM

Thanks Father,

Just gave 3 votes!

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 6:27 AM

Yes

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Stephen Paynter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 10:38 AM

It would be good, along with a tree/timeline, which situates the textual witnesses within their families, if some kind of summary paragraph was associated with each text, that would pop up when one's cursor hovered over the text symbol. This should give some idea as to the "quality" of the text in question. 

It would also be good if the range of different texts which evidenced a particular reading were automatically summarised, drawing out whether they were all of the same family, or whether they were all late manuscripts, or all unreliable or secondary manuscripts, or a wide diversity of manuscripts. In other words, express in words the kinds of things a textual scholar who is on top of all this stuff would see for themselves at a glance.

It would also be good if various "theories" were expressed as to how one reading could have changed to another were presented. E.g. If reading 1 is the original, reading 2 could have happened simply by omitting a word, inserting a character, changing an uncommon word for a common one, smoothing over awkward syntax, e.t.c. However, if reading 2 were original, reading 1 could come about by x, y or z. And then a auto-conclusion as to the which is the most likely. E.g. reading 2 because it is the most difficult, and because the reasons given for why reading 1 and 3 came about are the most common mistakes found, e.t.c

It would also be good if links between multiple variants within a verse or paragraph are brought out. E.g. If reading 1 is chosen in the first variant, reading 4 always follows in the second place.

If this meant that certain standard reference books on textual criticism (like Metzger's commentary) were effectively built into the Logos textual criticism generator ... so much the better! Big Smile

I do not know enough to know whether or not it would be necessary (helpful) to also include a "minority" report, based on different schools of thought concerning textual priorities / importance. I know for example that some swear by the texts behind the AV/KJV, but I am unclear how "off-the-wall" such theories are. I do know if there are other schools of thought.

Ideally the report would draw upon (use and summarise) all the different textual apparatuses that are/have been used ... but I guess the minimum would be the use of the NA28 apparatus.

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David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 22 2013 11:11 AM

Beloved:

Big inducement for Logos 6.0. But, would love to see it sooner. Super idea!

Agree!

However, if Logos had the resources, they could adopt the application strategy by creating portable apps that we can purchase and add to the Logos ecosystem.  Logos would need to define which tools (found in the Guides and Tools menus) belong to a select, or all, base packages; then Logos can conceptualize, design, develop, and test biblical study tools (apps) that customers could purchase to add to their base packages.  I realize to a certain degree Logos has done this in the past with Add-ons (i.e. Greek Pronunciation, PPB), but this strategy isn't a major business and development approach for them.

David

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