BUG with indenting text in RC3 Notes

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Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Jun 30 2013 5:08 AM

Create a new Note

Ensure that Left Justify is selected for the note.

Insert text, for example this:

"For just as the body is one has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:-12-13).

So far,all looks good (except that it may be the wrong size - another reported bug). But then, "Select" it all, and click the -> button to indent it to the right. It left justifies the text, but the quote hangs out in the left margin. This is not correct! All the first characters should be left justified, not just the letters.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 6:13 AM

I either cannot duplicate this problem, or I do not understand the problem. Could you provide a screenshot?

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 7:45 AM

You see it right in your image - the quote is outside the left margin, not aligned with the letters below.

How Logos does it (put up to 16 point to see it easier):

Here is a screen shot of Word, which represents how everyone else does it and how Logos used to do it:

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 7:49 AM

Don Awalt:
You see it right in your image - the quote is outside the left margin, not aligned with the letters below.

In publishing software, you pay extra for that! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_punctuation

Posts 2584
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 9:13 AM

Mark is spot on with that answer. It's a typographical refinement. If you look closely, you may find f-I ligatures and other typographical niceties in your Logos.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 11:22 AM

1. This isn't publishing software

2. Behavior changed from the former implementation of Notes, people rely on this for consistent formatting

3. Writing style guides like APA do not call for it other than in References, not in using quotes.

4. I have no software on my computer that does this as default - for example, in Word you can do this but you must set it up - it is not the default because it is not the preferred way most people like to see their text.

I just wanted to clarify this is a BUG.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 12:34 PM

It may or may not be a bug, even if you prefer it as it was. Some people may consider it an enhancement.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 1:14 PM

Don Awalt:

Create a new Note

Ensure that Left Justify is selected for the note.

Insert text, for example this:

"For just as the body is one has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:-12-13).

So far,all looks good (except that it may be the wrong size - another reported bug). But then, "Select" it all, and click the -> button to indent it to the right. It left justifies the text, but the quote hangs out in the left margin. This is not correct! All the first characters should be left justified, not just the letters.

I'm still not sure that I understand your problem.  Here are some screenshots from my installation with comments regarding what I am doing in each step.

I didn't cut out everything I wanted cut out, but you should get the picture.  Does anything here answer your question?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 5:48 PM

George, start the indented line with quotes. They hang over they are not indented. See my picture.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 5:53 PM

Mark Barnes:

It may or may not be a bug, even if you prefer it as it was. Some people may consider it an enhancement.

I had a long answer in reply, but I deleted it - it's a bug - it changed. If it's a new feature, then to add that without giving me a way to match format that we have had for 3+ years is deplorable. I guess you could call anything a feature that's not a crash or data corruption?

Thanks all for the support - I'll keep quiet now. Hopefully Logos disagrees with the concept of unannounced :features" creeping in, and let's justify it as a bug. That's a terribly deflating way to support customers trying to use the product. Why the starred users consider this a "feature" and other changes in behavior bugs is beyond me.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 5:53 PM

The debate is interesting and I don't have a preference for the way 5.1 handles the quote - which is different to 5.0b, but I do mind this difference:-

I pasted the sentence twice, in different paragraphs and separately indented each paragraph. I would expect the indent of the leading quotes to be the same in each paragraph.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 30 2013 6:48 PM

Don Awalt:

George, start the indented line with quotes. They hang over they are not indented. See my picture.

Is this it?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 1:39 AM

Don Awalt:
I had a long answer in reply, but I deleted it - it's a bug - it changed. If it's a new feature, then to add that without giving me a way to match format that we have had for 3+ years is deplorable. I guess you could call anything a feature that's not a crash or data corruption?

Don Awalt:
Why the starred users consider this a "feature" and other changes in behavior bugs is beyond me.

By definition, a bug is something that is not working as intended. Without knowing whether the change was intentional or not, we don't know whether it's a bug, which is why I said "it may not may not be a bug". If it's unintentional, or has other intended consequences, or it doesn't work consistently then it is a bug. If a programmer has spent hours improving the notes editor to specifically add hanging punctuation, then it's a feature. I've made no judgement either way in this thread, and I still don't. I simply said that "it may not be a bug" and in other applications it's considered a feature.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 3:18 AM

Don Awalt:

You see it right in your image - the quote is outside the left margin, not aligned with the letters below.

How Logos does it (put up to 16 point to see it easier):

If I must increase the font size to see the problem, then it is not a problem for me. Sorry, but I personally can't see any reason to become so upset/irritated about this. There are much more important problems with Notes.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 4:27 AM

Jack Caviness:
Sorry, but I personally can't see any reason to become so upset/irritated about this.

The irritation comes from posting a problem with the software and having people say "no that's not a problem" or even more aggravating "no that's not an important problem.", without really knowing what Logos is thinking, as Mark states.  Jack, you are entitled to your opinion of course but given that you post a number of errors in Logos, how would you feel if people said the things interrupting your work are not important, it works better that way, and you are wrong? Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide?

To cloud the thread with all of this other stuff is terribly deflating and takes away all incentive to participate or report here. Thanks for your help.

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 4:54 AM

Mark Barnes:
It may or may not be a bug, even if you prefer it as it was.

If it happened always, it might have been intended, but as it only happens with indented text, I'd call it a bug.

Dave Hooton:

That's definitely a bug, as is this:

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

Jack Caviness:
If I must increase the font size to see the problem, then it is not a problem for me.

I'm glad your eyesight is still that good, but some of us have to use an increased font size whether we want to or not.Wink

Jack Caviness:
There are much more important problems with Notes.

That I can agree with, as regards the original issue.

Don Awalt:
Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide?

While I agree with most of what you say, including preferring it the way it was, I would think that others have as much right to express approval with the change as you and I have to express disapproval of it.

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 13399
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 5:39 AM

fgh:
That's definitely a bug, as is this:

Agreed Smile.

Don Awalt:

Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide? To cloud the thread with all of this other stuff is terribly deflating and takes away all incentive to participate or report here.

I'm sorry if you feel I've removed any incentive to post. That's certainly not my intention. Sometimes I forget that people use the forums for different reasons - some use them to interact with other users, and some use them to publicly draw things to Logos' attention, and many people for both purposes. I am usually in "interact with other users" mode, and therefore thought it would be helpful to interact. Because I have a background in computer programming, I may also have a stricter definition of exactly what is a bug than perhaps other do.

But I believe that interaction is often very useful because sometimes what appear to be bugs are actually misunderstood features (here's an example of when that happened to me), and sometimes bugs are more complex than we realise and it takes the community to work out exactly what the root of the problem is (here's an example of that, following on from this). That collaboration helps all of us, because it means together we can be more specific about the nature of the bug when it's communicated to Logos engineers. Even in this thread, the discussion has helped brought to the surface more bugs that can hopefully now be fixed, and that may not have happened if we had just confirmed the initial report.

My interaction, therefore, was designed to help clarify exactly what the problem was, and therefore to encourage forum participation. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 6:22 AM

fgh:
The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

I clicked once only.

Interestingly, the indentation of the second paragraph is now what I expected, after compacting the note and then expanding it!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 8253
LogosEmployee

In 5.1, Notes uses the Logos display engine for editing & display. (The reasons for this have been hashed out in other posts, but can be reiterated here if desired.)

One of the typographic enhancements supported by the display engine is hanging punctuation (e.g., this screenshot from BKC), and this is now supported in Notes due to the new editor.

Thus, this feature is in one sense "by design" (it's a feature of the Logos display engine), but also "accidental" (no one specifically said, "Let's have hanging punctuation in Notes"; this is also why it wasn't ever announced as a new feature).

We can consider having an (internal) option by which this can be disabled for Notes display, but still kept for resource display. No such option is available in 5.1.

Posts 18876
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jul 1 2013 1:31 PM

The style was used by Gutenberg in the Gutenberg Bible, the first book printed in Europe.

It has a very noble pedigree!

I was never aware of hanging punctuation before, and initially might not have liked it the first time if I'd been the one to notice it. But I could get used to it. Just like I've gotten used to the new standard of only putting one space after a period, which I used to hate!

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