SUGGESTION: Elaine Pagels Collection

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This post has 26 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 5005
David Paul | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Aug 3 2013 11:25 PM

I would like to see the following titles by Elaine Pagels available in Logos, please.

  • Adam, Eve, and the Serpent
  • The Origin of Satan
  • Revelations
  • The Gnostic Gospels
  • Beyond Belief
  • The Gnostic Paul

Please keep the price of these down...you can buy them all for a penny on Amazon, and I'm not a fan to start with.

Thanks.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 4:52 AM

David Paul:

I would like to see the following titles by Elaine Pagels available in Logos, please.

  • Adam, Eve, and the Serpent
  • The Origin of Satan
  • Revelations
  • The Gnostic Gospels
  • Beyond Belief
  • The Gnostic Paul

Please keep the price of these down...you can buy them all for a penny on Amazon, and I'm not a fan to start with.

Thanks.

This would be good.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 11323
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 6:42 AM

I don't know. It just seems dangerous. First, it's post-modern. Logos is presently in the early 1900s on commentaries and the early dark ages on church fathers. Secondly, and more obviously, 'Elaine'.  Of course, 'Bart' also sounds pretty scary.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 3258
Whyndell Grizzard | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 6:45 AM

Garbage in garbage out.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 6:54 AM

Denise:

I don't know. It just seems dangerous. First, it's post-modern. Logos is presently in the early 1900s on commentaries and the early dark ages on church fathers. Secondly, and more obviously, 'Elaine'.  Of course, 'Bart' also sounds pretty scary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-9cq4DfDTE

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 6:58 AM

Shallow, thoroughly discredited, Dan Brown-ish pseudo-scholarship.  Otherwise, she'd be a great addition.  Big Smile

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 11323
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 6:59 AM

Gee, Whyndall. Absent garbage, your house might really get smelly. And without purchasing garbage too.  That's even more scary.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 7:11 AM

Butters:

Shallow, thoroughly discredited, Dan Brown-ish pseudo-scholarship.  Otherwise, she'd be a great addition.  Big Smile

Butters, I frequently agree with you, but not this time.  Zip it!

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 7:13 AM

George Somsel:
Butters, I frequently agree with you, but not this time.  Zip it!

Likewise.  Sorry.  I shall keep my mouth shut.  Promise.  Zip it!

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 8898
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 8:08 AM

Denise:
Logos is presently in the early 1900s on commentaries and the early dark ages on church fathers.

Theologically, I would say it's the commentaries that are from the dark ages.Devil

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

Posts 1746
Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 9:08 AM

fgh:
Theologically, I would say it's the commentaries that are from the dark ages.Devil

While Bede is an actual example of a commentator from the Dark Ages, and is available for Logos, I'm not sure many of the offerings are anywhere as good as him Wink

Re: Pagels - not exactly my cup of tea now, but she was important for my development in that she showed me that there was a lot of interesting diversity out there in the world of Biblical Studies.

SDG

Ken McGuire

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials

L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze

Posts 5005
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 11:34 AM

Hold your friends close and your enemies closer. I spend the vast majority of my time reading things I disagree with, because that process makes me far more capable of defending what I believe to be true. As a result I eliminate potential blind spots and am not susceptible to charges of being ignorant of what I discredit..."know your enemy" and The Art of War and all that good stuff.

Pagels obviously dabbles in the shallow end of the pool, but she is a best-selling author. Many people are drunk on her wine, so to speak. It will help in sobering them up if one knows her recipes. In the same vein, I heartily recommend that Logos offer a Bart Ehrman collection as well. He isn't nearly as shallow and is more popular. A lot of the points Ehrman makes are true enough, and so if "we" are to defend against his wild assertions, we have to distinguish between wheat and chaff, lest we be accused of throwing out the baby. I'm pretty sure that a Bart Ehrman collection has already been requested.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 11:44 AM

David Paul:

Hold your friends close and your enemies closer. I spend the vast majority of my time reading things I disagree with, because that process makes me far more capable of defending what I believe to be true. As a result I eliminate potential blind spots and am not susceptible to charges of being ignorant of what I discredit..."know your enemy" and The Art of War and all that good stuff.

Pagels obviously dabbles in the shallow end of the pool, but she is a best-selling author. Many people are drunk on her wine, so to speak. It will help in sobering them up if one knows her recipes. In the same vein, I heartily recommend that Logos offer a Bart Ehrman collection as well. He isn't nearly as shallow and is more popular. A lot of the points Ehrman makes are true enough, and so if "we" are to defend against his wild assertions, we have to distinguish between wheat and chaff, lest we be accused of throwing out the baby.

I've always said on this forum that one should know opposing points of view.  I'm not sure that Pagels is really an opposing point of view or that she "dabbles in the shallow end of the pool."  Unlike Dan Brown she is an accredited scholar and not a novelist.  Also, she writes about the Gnostic Paul, i.e., Paul from the gnostic perspective, but that doesn't mean that she endorses understanding Paul thus.  I was reading her on the train into D.C. when I suddenly realized my stop was coming up so I closed my attaché case and ran for the exit.  I hope someone profited from my forgetfulness (other than financially).

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 11:57 AM

David Paul:

Hold your friends close and your enemies closer. I spend the vast majority of my time reading things I disagree with, because that process makes me far more capable of defending what I believe to be true. As a result I eliminate potential blind spots and am not susceptible to charges of being ignorant of what I discredit..."know your enemy" and The Art of War and all that good stuff.

Pagels obviously dabbles in the shallow end of the pool, but she is a best-selling author. Many people are drunk on her wine, so to speak. It will help in sobering them up if one knows her recipes. In the same vein, I heartily recommend that Logos offer a Bart Ehrman collection as well. He isn't nearly as shallow and is more popular. A lot of the points Ehrman makes are true enough, and so if "we" are to defend against his wild assertions, we have to distinguish between wheat and chaff, lest we be accused of throwing out the baby. I'm pretty sure that a Bart Ehrman collection has already been requested.

I totally understand and agree very much with the spirit of what you say David.

The thing is, she's not just another person with whom I (or presumably others) have disagreement.  I disagree on many points with, say, evangelical Protestants; but I deeply respect their scholarship and their viewpoints.  Indeed, I believe traditional Catholics have much to learn from them.  

Pagels, however, is in a whole different category; she has quite literally committed fraud to articulate her (to some people, "appealing" to me "appalling") viewpoint and passed it off as scholarship, and in the process has fooled many unsuspecting people who thought they were reading the latest in scholarship; she's tenured at Princeton after all!  Wink

As I see it, at some point, as Chesterton said, “Art, like morality, consists in drawing the line somewhere.”  She's beyond the proverbial pale as far as I'm concerned.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 5005
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 12:03 PM

I acknowledge that scholars needs to roll up thier sleeves and examine topics of questionable pedigree, such a headhunting, for instance, or Gnosticism. The problem I have is when a researcher gives the impression that headhunters were on the right track. Pagels gives the impression that she isn't just reporting, but that she actually supports the thrust of her studies. That may not be entirely accurate, but it is the vibe she gives off...to her discredit.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 12:24 PM

David Paul:
The problem I have is when a researcher gives the impression that headhunters were on the right track.

Will shrink to fit.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 5005
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 12:30 PM

Big Smile

Posts 11323
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 3:41 PM

Pagels is just reporting the obvious.  Just as today, there's multiple Christianities for which the participants all perceive their own area to be Christianity.  I come from one that views a tiny sliver as Christianity and the rest as no different than atheists; all headed for the same destination.

Always remember ... Christianity at one time viewed Mohammadans as merely another Christianity variation. History is rarely comfortable.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 466
Butters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 4:09 PM

Denise:

Pagels is just reporting the obvious.

Well, to be honest, that's not exactly true Denise.  I'm not trying to be argumentative, just truthful here.  I think any objective reader will discern a decidedly biased author, who is attempting to convey an ideology.  

Even IF you don't agree with that - and it sounds like you do not - it is worth asking the question:  if she is just "reporting the obvious" then why did she resort to scholarly legerdemain?  I hate to use the word "fraud" actually, but here is truly applies.    

Just as today, there's multiple Christianities for which the participants all perceive their own area to be Christianity.  I come from one that views a tiny sliver as Christianity and the rest as no different than atheists; all headed for the same destination.

That was and is true.  Nevertheless, as Christians we believe that the Church ought to be one (and we ought to work towards that) precisely because Truth is objective and one.  Most of those sects were in error; as they are now.  The conversation among denominations is precisely about that.  But as soon as we succumb to relativism in these matters - and perhaps all - we are no longer Christian.     

 Always remember ... Christianity at one time viewed Mohammadans as merely another Christianity variation. History is rarely comfortable.

Once the Church understood the nature of Islam - which is in error, and a heresy - it most certainly did not.  

“To love means loving the unlovable.  To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable.  Faith means believing the unbelievable.  Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton

Posts 11323
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 4 2013 4:51 PM

Maybe you might want to chat with Ben.

Actually I don't have a lot of appreciation for some of her evidence, and thus her conclusions. But I have even less appreciation for the scholarly evangelicals (me being one) whose arguments appear to rarely get past the early 1900s (and so the value of Logos' classic commentaries fit in so well).

And your last sentence is interesting. 

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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