SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR LOGOS, PLEASE READ THIS

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Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 7:55 PM

alabama24:

I own an L4 base package (platinum) and an L5 one (gold). I don't know what difference that would make, unless I am misunderstanding you. 

  1. My computer needs to INDEX often. I "purchase" free or inexpensive Vyrso books weekly. That isn't a "reindex"
  2. I often beta test, which involves getting a "new version" as often as every week or so. Generally no indexing is involved. 
  3. Resources are updated frequently. I would say that a couple of times a month, some resource (or group) is being updated. This requires the resource to index, but no full reindex is required. 

I ask because I never purchased an L5 package. I think that might be the cause for at least some of the issues. In theory, my L4 library is upgraded, but knowing the way Logos drops support of previous versions, I'm sure there's a bug somewhere.

Also, I have an pretty large collection of non-English resources - around 1,500 of them.

Posts 10309
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 8:07 PM

Eric ... I'm like you. I was fired as an Original Languages owner and have a part-time job as a cross-grader (sounds like a crossing guard).

I don't have your issues but I agree with you that expensive software should 'work'.

Actually, my experience has been, the more expensive the software, the more screwed up it is.  I use Finale and now Sibelius and both are a pain.  On the other hand I have fairly sophisticated synths and they don't stumble, even under heavy preasure.


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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 8:13 PM

Erik DiVietro:

I ask because I never purchased an L5 package. I think that might be the cause for at least some of the issues. 

I can't imagine how. 

Erik DiVietro:

In theory, my L4 library is upgraded, but knowing the way Logos drops support of previous versions, I'm sure there's a bug somewhere.

  1. I don't know of many companies who bend over backwards as much as Logos to support previous versions!
  2. Base packages and the software are completely unrelated. It has always been my contention that Logos should not call base packages by the software version. 
  3. L5 is really just L4 2.0. It is a further development of the same software. 

Erik DiVietro:

Also, I have an pretty large collection of non-English resources - around 1,500 of them.

Perseus, or something else?

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Posts 525
Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 9:33 PM

alabama24:
That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise. 

Mine does a re-index every time I buy a product.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 26 2013 9:47 PM

Kent:

alabama24:
That isn't my experience. In fact, I would say it is very rare to perform a re-index. I'm not sure why your experience has been otherwise. 

Mine does a re-index every time I buy a product.

  1. Erik said his system re-indexed when a new version of the app came out. That isn't the same thing as purchasing a new resource.
  2. When you purchase a new resource, your system indexes the new resource. It doesn't re-index!
  3. When resources are updated, they are re-indexed... But your entire library isn't. 

If you don't believe me, "purchase" a Vyrso freebie and time the indexing procedure. When it is done, type rebuild index into the command bar.  Just don't blame me for the loss of the use of your computer for many hours. Wink

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Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 27 2013 2:19 AM

Dan Francis:
Turn off automatic updates and do it manually only or set downloads to be late at night only. When it asks you to restart put it off till before you go to bed. 

This doesn't entirely solve all the problem, because there is no fully automatic way to do this updating. There are several steps where Logos stops, waiting for input from the user, so it doesn't just quietly go about its work through the night.

Is there some preference that I am not selecting? Does Logos give me the choice to automatically run the entire process from start of updating to completing indexing without further intervention? That would be a great option.

Right now I have to give it direction to install, etc. This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

Posts 5252
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 27 2013 11:12 AM

Phil Mills:
This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

I guess this is what we should be asking for...

-Dan

Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 27 2013 2:15 PM

Dan Francis:

Phil Mills:
This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

I guess this is what we should be asking for...

-Dan

Exactly.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 27 2013 2:53 PM

Phil Mills:

Dan Francis:

Phil Mills:
This is not currently an automatic process that can be done while I am away from the computer or sleeping.

I guess this is what we should be asking for...

-Dan

Exactly.

It can be good provided it is an option. Even then be prepared for Logos to close when you are in the midst of a project (even if Logos waits until there has been no activity for a while) and begins indexing. If you then schedule the download to occur when you are sleeping make sure the computer is going to be awake!

Dave
===

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Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 27 2013 7:12 PM

Dave Hooton:
It can be good provided it is an option. Even then be prepared for Logos to close when you are in the midst of a project (even if Logos waits until there has been no activity for a while) and begins indexing. If you then schedule the download to occur when you are sleeping make sure the computer is going to be awake!

Let's get the feature first. My use of the feature would be to manually start the download update process just before I go to bed. It would complete its download, installation, and index through the night and be ready for use all upgraded and indexed when I got up. The process would continue without further intervention on my part.

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Phil Mills:

My use of the feature would be to manually start the download update process just before I go to bed. It would complete its download, installation, and index through the night and be ready for use all upgraded and indexed when I got up. The process would continue without further intervention on my part.

You can almost do this already. (I'm not saying it can't be improved, just that a "good enough" solution may exist for the time being.)

In Logos 5, enter "update now" and let the check for updates run; this should take well under a minute in most circumstances. ("update resources" is a much lengthier check that is not necessary in normal circumstances.) As soon as the "Logos is downloading" notification appears, close Logos 5. The Indexer will continue downloading; when it finishes, it will notice that Logos 5 isn't running and will prepare and index your library. When you start Logos 5 in the morning, everything should be ready to go.

I know that this works on Windows in the current version. Until recently, the Mac version didn't automatically index if Logos 5 wasn't running, but I believe that has been fixed in a recent update. (I would have to ask a Mac team member on Monday to double-check this.)

There may be an extra step if you have "Automatically download updates" set to "No"... I'm not actually in front of Logos 5 to check right now, but I think that a button to start the download appears in the Program Settings panel when updates are available. (Sorry, it's been a while since I worked on that panel, so I don't remember exactly what it looks like.)

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 27 2013 10:44 PM

Bradley, thanks, did not know that the download, prepare and indexing process can be done this way :-) as an integral process

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

You can almost do this already. (I'm not saying it can't be improved, just that a "good enough" solution may exist for the time being.)

In Logos 5, enter "update now" and let the check for updates run; this should take well under a minute in most circumstances. ("update resources" is a much lengthier check that is not necessary in normal circumstances.) As soon as the "Logos is downloading" notification appears, close Logos 5. The Indexer will continue downloading; when it finishes, it will notice that Logos 5 isn't running and will prepare and index your library. When you start Logos 5 in the morning, everything should be ready to go.

I know that this works on Windows in the current version. Until recently, the Mac version didn't automatically index if Logos 5 wasn't running, but I believe that has been fixed in a recent update. (I would have to ask a Mac team member on Monday to double-check this.)

There may be an extra step if you have "Automatically download updates" set to "No"... I'm not actually in front of Logos 5 to check right now, but I think that a button to start the download appears in the Program Settings panel when updates are available. (Sorry, it's been a while since I worked on that panel, so I don't remember exactly what it looks like.)

JK

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Posts 316
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 1:19 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
You can almost do this already.

Thanks for the info. I generally do use the update now command, but did not know that it prepared and indexed the library with Logos not running. I think if this was made into a transparent one step process with one command, more negative comments would disappear. I know this process has been an impediment for me and one reason I recommend people to have as small a library as possible.

Posts 1002
LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 2:54 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

  • In Logos 5, enter "update now" and let the check for updates run; ...
  • As soon as the "Logos is downloading" notification appears, close Logos 5.
  • The Indexer will continue downloading; when it finishes, it will notice that Logos 5 isn't running and will prepare and index your library.
  • When you start Logos 5 in the morning, everything should be ready to go.

I know that this works on Windows in the current version. Until recently, the Mac version didn't automatically index if Logos 5 wasn't running, but I believe that has been fixed in a recent update. ...

There may be an extra step if you have "Automatically download updates" set to "No"... 

Bradley,

Thank you, thank you Smile

I have just experimented on Logos 5.1b on Windows 8 on my VM.  It goes all the way from downloading (0-100%), preparing (Stage 1-3), Indexing (0-100%) without intervention.  By the way I have my "Automatically Download Updates" set to "No" ... it still works the same way your described Yes.

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 6:39 AM

Erik DiVietro:

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software.

Why am I frustrated? Because in the past four years, Logos has repeatedly dropped the ball on their core product. If this were the first time Logos had done something like this - or even the second, it would not bother me. But it isn't, is it?

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable. 

Was Logos for Mac (the Mac version of Logos 3) a fully-rounded program? No. It was lacking in a lot of respects. Did it need to be updated? Absolutely. Was dropping an alpha as if it were a full product the answer? No.

I stuck with Logos for Mac through 29 (that's right, 29!) builds before it even got to beta. Why? Because I had paid for the thing. In August 2010, they got to the beta. Sure, they had some computers stolen (twice!) but that was no excuse for leaving us with a dysfunctional product for 10 months.

But it wasn't over yet, was it? Over the next year, there was a new build about every three weeks on average. It took until version 4.2b for the product to be usable in any practical way. Until that point, the software was buggy and lagged unbelievably.

Then, without much of any real preamble, in October 2012, we were welcomed into Logos 5. It was new and shiny, and we were all supposed to rush out and buy it. I didn't. I waited. Despite the unbelievable full court press on me from email, phone calls and even little pop-ups in my software, I stayed the course until Logos allowed us to download the engine for free - without all the "new" features (which I wasn't going to use anyway.)

And since that initial release?

November 02 - Service Release 1
November 05 - Service Release 2
November 21 - 5.0a Release
November 29 - Service Release 1
December 04 - Service Release 2
December 17 - Service Release 3
January 15 - Service Release 4
February 12 - 5.0b Release
February 19 - Service Release 1
March 19 - Service Release 2
April 23 - Service Release 3
May 16 - Service Release 4
July 1 - 5.1 Release
July 10 - Service Release 1
July 23 - Service Release 2
August 5 - Service Release 3
September 03 - 5.1a Release
September 04 - Service Release 1
September 16 - Service Release 2
September 23 - 5.1b Release

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index. This isn't a Word Processing software or a graphics manipulation software. This is a library research program. This isn't a $20 app we download on a whim. I've spent a lot of money on Logos; and I have encouraged dozens of other people to do so as well. I'm heavily invested in this platform. I've gone out on a limb to defend Logos, to promote the product. And Logos has just continued to let me (and many others, including my father who was one of their earliest adopters) down.

So, am I grumpy? Am I frustrated? 

YES. 

I live in New England. I have a number of friends who are software developers. I know how this works. Logos is doing a slipshod job of managing their system. I get it that we are being apologized to for the foibles. I get that human errors happen. I get that Richard Brannan is willing to say mea culpa and promise it won't happen again.

But guys, this has been a problem with Logos for four years. Something is wrong with the way someone is managing this. Do I blame Richard? No. Do I blame the developers? No, not really. Do I blame the management for allowing this to be the way Logos has run for four years? Yes. Yes, I do.

Do I think it will change? Sadly, no. No, I don't. And that frustrates me, because I expected more from the company that saw me through college and seminary and ministry. I expected Logos to operate like the company they should be. They should be producing a world-class experience. Instead, we get this kind of silliness that we had this week - over and over.

I think you have some misconceptions about software.  For one, you complained about an alpha version that wasn't fully functional, that is the very definition of an alpha program.  It's in the very beginning stages and not even a beta yet, much less a release candidate.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 6:44 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Erik DiVietro:

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software...

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable. 


I think you have some misconceptions about software.  For one, you complained about an alpha version that wasn't fully functional, that is the very definition of an alpha program.  It's in the very beginning stages and not even a beta yet, much less a release candidate.

EdV seems to be saying that he had bought into the Mac version under the fair assumption that it was a fully functional program.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 6:50 AM

Lee:

David Taylor Jr:

Erik DiVietro:

I have been a Logos user for nearly 20 years. I have used every iteration of this software...

Let's go back to November 2009 when Logos decided to release an alpha version of Logos 4 on Mac users. There was no notification about the state of the software at first (they later added a page justifying the decision). Like a number of other Mac users, I laid out my upgrade fee only to discover that the software was all but unusable. 


I think you have some misconceptions about software.  For one, you complained about an alpha version that wasn't fully functional, that is the very definition of an alpha program.  It's in the very beginning stages and not even a beta yet, much less a release candidate.

EdV seems to be saying that he had bought into the Mac version under the fair assumption that it was a fully functional program.

I understand that, and my point is that to assume that an alpha is a fully well functioning program is a misunderstanding of what an Alpha software is.  On this thread and another thread he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

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Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:02 AM

David Taylor Jr:

I understand that, and my point is that to assume that an alpha is a fully well functioning program is a misunderstanding of what an Alpha software is.  On this thread and another thread he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

I understand software development quite well, thank you, David. Companies do not SELL their alpha products precisely BECAUSE they are not fully functioning programs. They are not release candidates. So, why did Logos choose to unleash their alpha product upon the public?

Perhaps you did not have to endure the debacle that was Logos 4 Mac, but I did. I went through all 29 alpha cycles and the countless beta cycles. Unfounded? My criticism is quite founded, thank you very much.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:04 AM

Erik DiVietro:

David Taylor Jr:

I understand that, and my point is that to assume that an alpha is a fully well functioning program is a misunderstanding of what an Alpha software is.  On this thread and another thread he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

I understand software development quite well, thank you, David. Companies do not SELL their alpha products precisely BECAUSE they are not fully functioning programs. They are not release candidates. So, why did Logos choose to unleash their alpha product upon the public?

Perhaps you did not have to endure the debacle that was Logos 4 Mac, but I did. I went through all 29 alpha cycles and the countless beta cycles. Unfounded? My criticism is quite founded, thank you very much.

Because there had been an outcry for them to do so.  They did not FORCE anyone to, it was a choice by you and others who opted in for the program.  

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Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:20 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Because there had been an outcry for them to do so.  They did not FORCE anyone to, it was a choice by you and others who opted in for the program. 

No, David. We were all told, "Here's our new product!" We weren't forced; but we weren't told the truth either. I had an extensive conversation with a salesperson from Logos before I purchased it, and I was assured this was a fully functional, cross-platform program. Of course, I upgraded. Why wouldn't you?

It was only after I downloaded it and started trying to use it on my Mac that I realized it was missing enormous pieces of what I was being sold. Then, after a couple weeks, we got a message from Bob Pritchett explaining that it was an alpha, but that Logos wanted to release the Windows and Mac versions at the same time. 

It was a sad day. The Mac version was easily a year behind the Windows version. What Logos should have done was tell us that the Mac version was coming. It was nowhere near ready for broad use.

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