SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR LOGOS, PLEASE READ THIS

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Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:25 AM

More importantly, the process has not ended. Just read through the forums. We are still dealing with all kinds of bizarre issues - from sudden crashes, to unexplained re-indexing, to screens minimizing on launch.

This "incremental" approach to launching software works fine for simple software. Logos is the very definition of not simple. It is a massive project, and it is going to take time to get it right. Any user who has a grasp of the breadth and depth of the software knows that; and any user who cares about quality would prefer that Logos get it right before they drop the product.

I can live with a version of Skitch that doesn't work properly. I don't mind if Facebook doesn't appear on my phone. If Microsoft Word is malfunctioning, I can use any number of alternatives. I make my living with Logos. I rely upon it as I rely on nothing else on my computers, and it has no alternative. Logos has to work

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:27 AM

Erik DiVietro:

David Taylor Jr:

Because there had been an outcry for them to do so.  They did not FORCE anyone to, it was a choice by you and others who opted in for the program. 

No, David. We were all told, "Here's our new product!" We weren't forced; but we weren't told the truth either. I had an extensive conversation with a salesperson from Logos before I purchased it, and I was assured this was a fully functional, cross-platform program. Of course, I upgraded. Why wouldn't you?

It was only after I downloaded it and started trying to use it on my Mac that I realized it was missing enormous pieces of what I was being sold. Then, after a couple weeks, we got a message from Bob Pritchett explaining that it was an alpha, but that Logos wanted to release the Windows and Mac versions at the same time. 

It was a sad day. The Mac version was easily a year behind the Windows version. What Logos should have done was tell us that the Mac version was coming. It was nowhere near ready for broad use.

Then can I ask a question?  Why don't you take it up with Logos directly rather than tire out the rest of us with complaints we see as a little crazy?  Call logos and ask for Bob, they will put you straight through to him.  

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Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:29 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Then can I ask a question?  Why don't you take it up with Logos directly rather than tire out the rest of us with complaints we see as a little crazy?  Call logos and ask for Bob, they will put you straight through to him.  

You would assume I haven't, wouldn't you?

You're not required to read and respond to what I post on this public forum - now are you?

Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:30 AM

Erik DiVietro:

More importantly, the process has not ended. Just read through the forums. We are still dealing with all kinds of bizarre issues - from sudden crashes, to unexplained re-indexing, to screens minimizing on launch.

This "incremental" approach to launching software works fine for simple software. Logos is the very definition of not simple. It is a massive project, and it is going to take time to get it right. Any user who has a grasp of the breadth and depth of the software knows that; and any user who cares about quality would prefer that Logos get it right before they drop the product.

I can live with a version of Skitch that doesn't work properly. I don't mind if Facebook doesn't appear on my phone. If Microsoft Word is malfunctioning, I can use any number of alternatives. I make my living with Logos. I rely upon it as I rely on nothing else on my computers, and it has no alternative. Logos has to work

Logos is not the source of your livelihood, and to think that there are no alternatives to Logos is even more ridiculous than the other claims you have been making.  There are websites, paper books, libraries, and many other tools that accomplish what Logos does.  If you are so dissatisfied with Logos, why not try something else?

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:35 AM

Erik DiVietro:

You would assume I haven't, wouldn't you?

You're not required to read and respond to what I post on this public forum - now are you?

My point was to you, why do this in public?  There is no reason for it.  You have openly questioned the integrity of the people at Logos on absurd accusations.  I don't think that is pleasing to Christ.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:42 AM

Wow. A couple of days ago Jesus and Karl Marx were up for grabs.  Today Jesus is running a software company.  What will he do next?


Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:45 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Logos is not the source of your livelihood, and to think that there are no alternatives to Logos is even more ridiculous than the other claims you have been making.  There are websites, paper books, libraries, and many other tools that accomplish what Logos does.  If you are so dissatisfied with Logos, why not try something else?

What gives you the right or the ability to judge how I use Logos, David? You have decided to oppose any statement I make, and frankly it is getting annoying.

Logos is the single most used program on my computers, and I have thousands of dollars and 20+ years tied up in it. I used it for virtually everything I do. If you think I can just replace the resources I own in Logos, then you must not be using Logos to its fullest capacity. To replace what I own in Logos would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000. If you want to spot me $15,000, then I'll leave Logos. No? Didn't think so.

As a faithful user and supporter of the Logos system from the beginning, I think I can comment on the poor decisions they have made in recent years.

Don't get me wrong. I love Logos. I always have; but I do not love the decisions they have made over the past four years in releasing the updates to their system. I am not doing anything wrong in presenting honest criticism. Or is that somehow wrong in your eyes? Who gives you the right to decide what I can say or not say? Who gives you the right to decide whether or not I use the software for my livelihood? Who appointed you the sacred keeper of Logos?

Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:52 AM

Erik DiVietro:

David Taylor Jr:

Logos is not the source of your livelihood, and to think that there are no alternatives to Logos is even more ridiculous than the other claims you have been making.  There are websites, paper books, libraries, and many other tools that accomplish what Logos does.  If you are so dissatisfied with Logos, why not try something else?

What gives you the right or the ability to judge how I use Logos, David? You have decided to oppose any statement I make, and frankly it is getting annoying.

Logos is the single most used program on my computers, and I have thousands of dollars and 20+ years tied up in it. I used it for virtually everything I do. If you think I can just replace the resources I own in Logos, then you must not be using Logos to its fullest capacity. To replace what I own in Logos would cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $15,000. If you want to spot me $15,000, then I'll leave Logos. No? Didn't think so.

As a faithful user and supporter of the Logos system from the beginning, I think I can comment on the poor decisions they have made in recent years.

Don't get me wrong. I love Logos. I always have; but I do not love the decisions they have made over the past four years in releasing the updates to their system. I am not doing anything wrong in presenting honest criticism. Or is that somehow wrong in your eyes? Who gives you the right to decide what I can say or not say? Who gives you the right to decide whether or not I use the software for my livelihood? Who appointed you the sacred keeper of Logos?

I'm not trying to oppose you, but this is ridiculous.  I don't have the same issues you are having, granted I am on a PC.  But my mom who is on a Mac also isn't having the same issues.  My library doesn't re-index all the time, it indexes new resources.  You are complaining about things that are insane to be quite frank.  

The upgrade for instance, Bob was right it WAS clear on what came with what.  If you use the comparison tool, that was available from day one, it told you exactly what dataset came with what.

But to question someone's integrity over these issues?  That's ridiculous.  I'm not the "sacred keeper" of Logos.  All I am saying is that your arguments are unfair and unwarranted and not necessary to bother the forums with, just contact Logos directly.  Users have tried to help you but you don't want help, you just want to rant and complain.

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Posts 694
Jerry Bush | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 7:58 AM
  • I have not had near the experience that Erik is having. I am on the PC side, so not quite apples to apples.

  • I do not believe Logos has released anything too early, with the possible exception of Logos 4. Version 5 was polished and ready.

  • I welcome the updates and improvements; rather than annoying me, they make me appreciate Logos even more.

  • My only beef with the company is number of emails I get daily. But they are a company trying to sell things, and it is pretty easy to delete the emails I am not interested in.

Jerry

Win7 - - Intel Core i3, 530 @ 2 .93GHz - - 6GB RAM ATI Radeon HD Samsung 500GB SSD

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Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:01 AM

Jerry Bush:

  • I have not had near the experience that Erik is having. I am on the PC side, so not quite apples to apples.

  • I do not believe Logos has released anything too early, with the possible exception of Logos 4. Version 5 was polished and ready.

  • I welcome the updates and improvements; rather than annoying me, they make me appreciate Logos even more.

  • My only beef with the company is number of emails I get daily. But they are a company trying to sell things, and it is pretty easy to delete the emails I am not interested in.

Jerry

Well said Jerry, you can also opt out of the emails you don't want.

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Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:25 AM

David Taylor Jr:

But to question someone's integrity over these issues?  That's ridiculous.  I'm not the "sacred keeper" of Logos.  All I am saying is that your arguments are unfair and unwarranted and not necessary to bother the forums with, just contact Logos directly.  Users have tried to help you but you don't want help, you just want to rant and complain.

David, please. You jumped into a thread two days after it was posted. I had a perfectly civil conversation with several users over the problems I was encountering. I accepted their help and suggestions. You are the one who decided I was ranting. I was complaining, and I have the right to do that. You, however, do not have the right to announce that I am being "absurd" and "insane". That is an immature approach to the issue. 

You don't encounter the problems I do? That's fine. You probably don't own the resources I do or do the work I do. You are trying to judge my use of Logos, which involves multiple languages and thousands of resources with yours. I've tried to explain to you that you don't know what I use Logos for, but you insist on using your experience as the standard and anything that isn't like your experience is "absurd" and "insane."

And then you accuse me of not conducting the conversation in a Christ-like manner? Really...

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:27 AM

Erik DiVietro:

David Taylor Jr:

But to question someone's integrity over these issues?  That's ridiculous.  I'm not the "sacred keeper" of Logos.  All I am saying is that your arguments are unfair and unwarranted and not necessary to bother the forums with, just contact Logos directly.  Users have tried to help you but you don't want help, you just want to rant and complain.

David, please. You jumped into a thread two days after it was posted. I had a perfectly civil conversation with several users over the problems I was encountering. I accepted their help and suggestions. You are the one who decided I was ranting. I was complaining, and I have the right to do that. You, however, do not have the right to announce that I am being "absurd" and "insane". That is an immature approach to the issue. 

You don't encounter the problems I do? That's fine. You probably don't own the resources I do or do the work I do. You are trying to judge my use of Logos, which involves multiple languages and thousands of resources with yours. I've tried to explain to you that you don't know what I use Logos for, but you insist on using your experience as the standard and anything that isn't like your experience is "absurd" and "insane."

And then you accuse me of not conducting the conversation in a Christ-like manner? Really...

That wasn't what I said at all actually.  Have a nice day.

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LogosEmployee

Erik DiVietro:

And every time we get a new release? Guess what we get to do? Re-index.

This is certainly not supposed to happen. Please enable logging the next time you update and post the log files here so that we can fix this bug. (I have never seen it happen on any Logos 5 computer I've used, so I'm really not sure at all what could be causing it.)

Aside from the indexing on each update, which should not be happening, do you have a more specific complaint about the frequency of updates? I'm really not sure what you think is bad when you say "Logos is doing a slipshod job of managing their system." In most months this year, there was only one stable update released. I agree that perhaps so many updates (four) shouldn't have been shipped in September, and we're going to look into why this happened. Otherwise, I feel that we're doing a good job of periodically releasing new features, performance improvements, and bugfixes to customers.

Does shipping SRs to all users give a bad impression of the overall quality of Logos? Apart from 5.1a SR-1, which fixed a (non-crashing) bug affecting all Mac users, most SRs typically fix a crash (that has no workaround) that affects a small percentage of users. Should we hold these back and only ship hotfixes to customers who call in reporting that specific problem? If we did that, there would have been only four updates shipped this year; would that have seemed better? Or should we move to a more OS X-like schedule with a larger update every year or two?

Erik DiVietro:

I have a number of friends who are software developers.

If you referred them to Logos, you'd get a $2000 software credit, and we'd get developers who know how to ship software properly; it'd be win-win. Wink

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:39 AM

David Taylor Jr:

...he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

...complaints we see as a little crazy?

You have openly questioned the integrity of the people at Logos on absurd accusations.

You are complaining about things that are insane...

Every statement I have made has been founded in my experience with the software.

YOU are the only person who sees what I have complained about as crazy.

At no time have I questioned the integrity of the staff at Logos - only their approach to delivering their product. Do I think they are doing a poor job of it? Yes, yes I do. That's not a question of integrity. It is a matter of resource deployment and management. 

And here you are saying the things I say are "insane."

At no time have I used anything even remotely close to the inflammatory language you have employed against me, but somehow I am the one who is attacking? In the previous thread, when you emphasized repeatedly that you had worked in Apple Support, I verified that I had done the things you were suggesting. Then, you jumped over into this thread and started your stream of posts on my failure to do things to your satisfaction. I don't know what your issue is, "frankly".

Posts 3065
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:42 AM

Erik DiVietro:

David Taylor Jr:

...he has made ridiculous arguments that are quite frankly unfounded.

...complaints we see as a little crazy?

You have openly questioned the integrity of the people at Logos on absurd accusations.

You are complaining about things that are insane...

Every statement I have made has been founded in my experience with the software.

YOU are the only person who sees what I have complained about as crazy.

At no time have I questioned the integrity of the staff at Logos - only their approach to delivering their product. Do I think they are doing a poor job of it? Yes, yes I do. That's not a question of integrity. It is a matter of resource deployment and management. 

And here you are saying the things I say are "insane."

At no time have I used anything even remotely close to the inflammatory language you have employed against me, but somehow I am the one who is attacking? In the previous thread, when you emphasized repeatedly that you had worked in Apple Support, I verified that I had done the things you were suggesting. Then, you jumped over into this thread and started your stream of posts on my failure to do things to your satisfaction. I don't know what your issue is, "frankly".

Perhaps I confused you with another user who did in fact question their integrity.  That being said, I did say have a nice day, in other words I'm leaving you alone.

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Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:45 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

If you referred them to Logos, you'd get a $2000 software credit, and we'd get developers who know how to ship software properly; it'd be win-win. Wink

The guys I know develop for Oracle, Deka, and MITRE. I'm not sure they would be interested in moving across the country.

Posts 70
Erik DiVietro | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 8:59 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

Does shipping SRs to all users give a bad impression of the overall quality of Logos? Apart from 5.1a SR-1, which fixed a (non-crashing) bug affecting all Mac users, most SRs typically fix a crash (that has no workaround) that affects a small percentage of users. Should we hold these back and only ship hotfixes to customers who call in reporting that specific problem? If we did that, there would have been only four updates shipped this year; would that have seemed better? Or should we move to a more OS X-like schedule with a larger update every year or two?

Bradley, a good question.

Someone posted in this thread that a Logos employee posted in the forums that there would be a lot of updates this past week. That was Rick Brannon, and he did a great job of explaining why this happened after the fact. Seriously, kudos to Rick for explaining why it happened and promising to prevent it in the future. That is a step in the right direction, of course, but most users don't check the forums to see if updates are coming. To be perfectly honest, I only go to the forums when an update does something awry. 

I am all for service releases and updates; but when they disrupt the workflow of an entire week, that can be quite frustrating. Maybe I am the only person who does this, but I run Logos almost non-stop during the day. I can deal with an update dropped on a Monday morning (and yes, I know you guys are in Pacific Time). I have a hard time dealing with four drops in a week.

You could solve this problem by the simple expedient of your in-app advertising system. We get notified in-app when there is an update available. When I get that notification, I know to block out time for the download and the integration of the system. 

Alternatively, you could give the users the option to schedule their cumulative downloads. If I could set my updates to Friday afternoons, I would gladly start the process at the end of the day when I leave my office at the church; and I can set my Macbook there to shut down after it is done.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:00 AM

Denise:

Wow. A couple of days ago Jesus and Karl Marx were up for grabs.  Today Jesus is running a software company.  What will he do next?

LOL!

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:09 AM

Erik DiVietro:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

If you referred them to Logos, you'd get a $2000 software credit, and we'd get developers who know how to ship software properly; it'd be win-win. Wink

The guys I know develop for Oracle, Deka, and MITRE. I'm not sure they would be interested in moving across the country.

Erik, you are correct, sir. You shouldn't refer your developer friends to Logos. You should let me do it...I would love to pay off my Portfolio. If you don't mind, just email me their contact info, and I will do the rest. Thanks, bro...I'll even name my default layout in your honor! The Erik! Yes

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 28 2013 9:52 AM

Erik — for clarification... I think you have confused software and resource updates. Both, however, can cause disruptions to workflow. Tongue Tied I've tried to figure out if you have mistakenly said that software updates have caused indexing. As Bradley verified, software updates shouldn't do that (most of the time). 

Two more things: Logos did announce the resource updates via the forums. It would have been good to announce via other streams as well. As for in-app advertisement... I fully agree. There are, however, frequent complaints about the use of that system. Perhaps most people would feel differently about that sort of announcement. (Good idea Smile)

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