Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English; Lake, Lightfoot, or Holmes?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Oct 6 2013 5:08 PM

Can someone enlighten me on the differences and benefits of each of these three resources?:

Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English   (Lake Edition)

Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English   (Lightfoot Edition)

Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English   (Holmes)

Which is the most useful?             Thank you for any responses.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 5:36 PM

You are right - all three are similar in that they are diglots of more or less the same works, with brief introductions to each work.  The Holmes, however, is vastly more recent (It is actually an update of the Lightfoot), and so is more up to date.  As such, it is a bit more useful.

All three integrate equally with the Logos ecosystem, in that the greek is morphologically tagged in the same way, and so can be searched for word studies.  None has an interlinear.

SDG

Ken McGuire.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 5:49 PM

Psalm 29:11

                        Just wondering ....

I really am a bit scared of changing some of the naming of these similar-sounding resources -- in case I can't get back to the default, somehow ...........

                                              however, has anyone changed the names (longer OR shorter!) to more readily (quickly?   -- surely?)  identify what is showing in the library... For example, I just downloaded 4 more on September 27 - (G.A. Jackson works) ...  I can figure things out after a few minutes of reflection; however, I'd like to "cut the fog" a little faster, please ..........          *smile*

 

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 5:49 PM

Ken McGuire:

None has an interlinear.

SDG

Ken McGuire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 5:57 PM

Adding to Ken's good advice, Holmes is the only one you can link to the NT (using a CitedBy).


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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:02 PM

George Somsel:

Ken McGuire:

None has an interlinear.

SDG

Ken McGuire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

Thanks for the video, George!            I was hoping to see it; however, I have no sound ...           Does one have to sign in now to YouTube in order to get sound.              Other than that, the sound works well on my computer ....

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:05 PM

Milford, I've changed the titles on maybe half of my bought library. Works great, since improves sorts, tab titles, search headings, right-click listings, etc.

Best thing I've done to make Logos more usable.

Plus really 'sorts' things out on my iPod ...when I want Matthew commentaries, I just type 40_ as an example. Or catholic translations, CTH_. And so on.


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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:16 PM

Thanks, Denise!        Have you ever needed to make an emergency exit back to default?        How easy is that, eh???

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:17 PM

Milford Charles Murray:

George Somsel:

Ken McGuire:

None has an interlinear.

SDG

Ken McGuire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

Thanks for the video, George!            I was hoping to see it; however, I have no sound ...           Does one have to sign in now to YouTube in order to get sound.              Other than that, the sound works well on my computer ....

Not to my knowledge.  It works for me.  Did you check the speaker icon on the YouTube display?  That could be turned off.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:19 PM

Easy ...just delete the edited text (the whole title); Logos puts in the original. One of fgh's tips I learned.


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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:31 PM

George Somsel:

Milford Charles Murray:

George Somsel:

Ken McGuire:

None has an interlinear.

SDG

Ken McGuire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

Thanks for the video, George!            I was hoping to see it; however, I have no sound ...           Does one have to sign in now to YouTube in order to get sound.              Other than that, the sound works well on my computer ....

Not to my knowledge.  It works for me.  Did you check the speaker icon on the YouTube display?  That could be turned off.

George, there's a little X by the speaker symbol - the X doesn't seem to do anything one way or the other ...    Is that what you mean?

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 6:32 PM

Denise:

Easy ...just delete the edited text (the whole title); Logos puts in the original. One of fgh's tips I learned.

Thanks, Denise!                  Cool!         That works!                      *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Oct 6 2013 7:19 PM

Milford Charles Murray:
George, there's a little X by the speaker symbol - the X doesn't seem to do anything one way or the other ...    Is that what you mean?

Try clicking directly on the speaker.  The "X" indicates that it's turned off.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 7:04 AM

Hmmm... interesting. The Holmes version is not the latest third edition. What's in the third?

from Preface to the Third Edition:


    In 2003, the editors at Baker Academic offered the opportunity to collaborate on a major revision of the English translation. Their intention was partly to improve the design and typography of the volume to render it more "user-friendly" for introductory-level students and general readers. (For example, they wanted to provide running heads with chapter and verse numbers to facilitate quick reference; they suggested adding subheadings within the translations to indicate the content of sections; and they thought the notes could be presented more conveniently.) In addition we believed that the translation itself, well received by reviewers and users, could be further improved.

    The result of our collaboration was a thoroughly revised translation. In addition to substantive changes in the translation, various stylistic details such as spelling, punctuation, capitalization, were in general conformed to current usage as represented in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible (though in some cases, special usages in one or more of the texts in this volume seemed to warrant capitalization of terms that are lowercase in the NRSV and other literature). The number of cross-references to scripture was increased, and notes indicating points of textual variation were simplified.

    In addition, the new edition paid closer attention than before to the gender of pronouns and to the use of masculine terms such as "brother." It would not have been useful to add "and sisters" or the like mechanically wherever a form of adelphoi occurs in the Greek. Rather, I attempted to make all such decisions in a context-sensitive manner. Where I judged that by adelphoi the writer was probably referring exclusively to males, the translation reads simply "brothers." Where I judged that the writer’s intention was inclusive, it reads "brothers and sisters." Furthermore, there are places where the Greek text reads adelphoi kai adelphai ("brothers and sisters"), or where the translation renders a phrase rather than the single word adelphoi as "brothers." So that readers of the translation are not left guessing, wherever it reads "brothers and sisters" a note indicates whether the Greek is adelphoi or adelphoi kai adelphai, and if "brothers" represents something other than adelphoi a note so indicates. This means that wherever the translation reads simply "brothers" (with no note attached), the Greek text has adelphoi; in any other circumstance a note will indicate how the Greek text reads. In addition, various strategies were used to avoid inclusive use of masculine pronouns wherever possible. Attentive readers will spot instances here and there where no grammatical and graceful alternative could be found.

    In conjunction with that revision of the English translation a review of the Greek and Latin texts was also initiated. As old evidence was reviewed and new evidence added (including the evidence of a manuscript of the Martyrdom of Polycarp not previously available that is here utilized for the first time), a relatively small number of textual changes were made (perhaps the most notable being the restoration of περιστερὰ καί, "a dove and," to the text of Mart. Pol. 16.1), and the scope of the critical apparatus was significantly expanded. In addition, the improvements in the design and typography of the translation were applied as well to the presentation of the Greek and Latin texts, and the format of the critical apparatus was reconfigured for greater ease and accuracy of use.

    In view of the scope of these changes to both text and translation, it no longer seemed useful or necessary to continue to signal in the notes all significant differences in text and interpretation from the original Lightfoot-Harmer version. This third edition, then, while genetically descended from the 1891 Lightfoot-Harmer diglot edition, is in effect a fresh and comprehensive revision.

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:12 AM

SuperTramp —

Chronologically, they were published Lightfoot/Harmer (1890s); Lake (1912-13); Holmes (2nd ed 1999; 3rd ed [not in Logos] was 2007, I believe).

The English translations: Lightfoot/Harmer reads like translations of the day, KJV-ish, stilted. Sometimes hard to figure out. Lake is better, though in some passages (e.g. in Barnabas, where the allegorical interpretation gets a bit "colorful") are positively victorian. Of the three, Holmes has the best English translation.* 

The Greek texts are all roughly the same, with some minor differences here and there. All three are morphologically tagged in Logos, though Lake's edition has had the most attention given to it, largely because I've used that as basis for my own Apostolic Fathers projects.

Is there something you're looking for specifically? If your primary criteria is readability in English, then Holmes or my own* would be what I'd recommend.

Hope it helps.

* Of course, I'm partial to my own translation, The Apostolic Fathers in English, which is in many of the L5 packages.

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:16 AM

From the Preface to the Third Edition:
 In addition, the new edition paid closer attention than before to the gender of pronouns and to the use of masculine terms such as "brother." It would not have been useful to add "and sisters" or the like mechanically wherever a form of adelphoi occurs in the Greek. Rather, I attempted to make all such decisions in a context-sensitive manner. Where I judged that by adelphoi the writer was probably referring exclusively to males, the translation reads simply "brothers." Where I judged that the writer’s intention was inclusive, it reads "brothers and sisters."

In other words, they are genuflecting to those who don't understand English since had they understood English they would realize that the masculine form, in many cases, includes women as well.  Oh, well, the world is getting more stupid all the time.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:21 AM

Super.Tramp:

Can someone enlighten me on the differences and benefits of each of these three resources?:

Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English   (Lake Edition)

Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English   (Lightfoot Edition)

Apostolic Fathers in Greek and English   (Holmes)

Which is the most useful?             Thank you for any responses.

These two posts are probably the most useful: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/27974/207418.aspx#207418 (look for my comparison and Rick Brannan's comments).

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 9:54 AM

Well, George. I know that I for one am getting more stupid all the time.  Also I don't have a lot of appreciation for being included among the male pronouns, etc.  The fact that the male component of the human race was genuinely  unaware that the other half of the human race wasn't amused by the singular use of gender for thousands of years only demonstrates the challenge the males face.  I do notice, when it came to 'the gods' they were able to figure it out.

Now similarly, you don't appreciate being referred to with female-associated words. I don't think you are stupid, though I admit, my aging is getting the better of me. And so my 'stupidity-ratio' seems to be increasing geometrically.


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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 10:22 AM

Rick Brannan (Logos):

Chronologically, they were published Lightfoot/Harmer (1890s); Lake (1912-13); Holmes (2nd ed 1999; 3rd ed [not in Logos] was 2007, I believe).

Is a Logos version of the 2007 edition on the horizon?

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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Oct 7 2013 2:07 PM

Lee:

Rick Brannan (Logos):

Chronologically, they were published Lightfoot/Harmer (1890s); Lake (1912-13); Holmes (2nd ed 1999; 3rd ed [not in Logos] was 2007, I believe).

Is a Logos version of the 2007 edition on the horizon?

Lee, I'm really unsure. The differences between Holmes' second and third editions are largely in the English translation (which is a major revision/overhaul of his second edition English) and also in the apparatus/notes supporting the Greek edition.

I'd recommend you send a note/request to suggest@logos.com (really, they do tabulate and review those).

Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print

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