Does John really need Daniel?

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Mar 11 2014 4:11 PM

In order for someone to have a "better" or more comprehensive interpretation of the book of Revelation do you or should you have a very good working knowledge of Daniel or does it really matter?

mm.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 4:20 PM

Ezekiel.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 4:20 PM

Guess that would depend upon your view of eschatology Hmm. Dispensationalists would say, "Absolutely." Not sure what others would say Big Smile

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TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 4:31 PM

Milkman:
"better" or more comprehensive interpretation
In order to have a better, more comprehensive interpretation of the book of Revelation I would strongly urge a deeply rooted Old Testament knowledge as a whole.  So yes. Daniel. And the other 38 books as well.

Hmm Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 4:56 PM

Peace to all!            In a rush!         Hello and Good-Bye!         *smile*

Besides that good suggestion, it might be helpful to read various books about the culture of the time -- some of the apocalyptic outlook and genre of the time 

Edit:  withdrew my original suggestion because I read the situation wrongly!            Too much of a hurry!        *smile*

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 5:00 PM

@ Milford,

That seems like quite the book. A fish and a bike?

mm.

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 5:00 PM

@ Denise.

Why Ezekiel?

mm.

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 5:20 PM

Milkman:
In order for someone to have a "better" or more comprehensive interpretation of the book of Revelation do you or should you have a very good working knowledge of Daniel or does it really matter?

Absolutely. You will need a good working knowledge of Ezekiel, Daniel, and prophecy in general, as well as a thorough understanding of Exodus, and the creational covenant thinking of Genesis. You'll need to understand the OT temple, priesthood, and liturgy. And you will need to understand the relationship between apocalyptic literature and the unresolved narrative of the OT, and how that narrative ultimately finds resolution in Jesus.

There are lots of good commentaries that will help you make connections with the OT literature, e.g. Beale (NIGTC) does that very well.

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DMB | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 5:57 PM

Milkman, I just can not imagine starting up at Apocalypse chapter 4, without a jewish in-depth knowledge of Ezekiel. Certainly some time in aramaic Israel (without the side trip to Sedona).

But absent that, Beale / D.A. Carson 'Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testment' logosres:comntuseot;ref=Page.p_1086;off=4539 :

'In a somewhat similar vein, Goulder (1981: 343–49) has argued that broad portions of Ezekiel have been the dominant influence on at least twelve major sections of Revelation (Rev. 4; 5; 6:1–8; 6:12–7:1; 7:2–8; 8:1–5; 10:1–7; 14:6–12; 17:1–6; 18:9–24; 20:7–10; 21:22). Goulder (1981: 353–54) observes that these uses of Ezekiel are a dominant influence on the structure of Revelation, since they are placed to a marked extent in the same order as they occur in Ezekiel itself (though he proposes a liturgical rather than a literary explanation to account better for the parallel order of Ezekiel and Revelation). Virtually identical to Goulder, though not positing a liturgical background, is Vogelgesang, who has gone so far as to conclude that John used Ezekiel as the model for the book’s overall structure and this “is the key to understanding the message of the book altogether” (1985: 394 [see also 16, 66–71]). Others have also recognized Ezekiel’s influence, especially in Rev. 20–22, where the order of events appears to have been taken from Ezek. 37–48. The broad structure of the new Jerusalem in Rev. 21:12–22:5 is based on the vision of Ezek. 40–48, which prophesies the pattern of the final temple (chaps. 40–44), as well as the arrangement of the eschatological city and divisions of the land around the temple compound (chaps. 45–48). Revelation 21:12–22:5 further interprets the yet future fulfillment of Ezekiel by collapsing temple, city, and land into one end-time picture portraying the one reality of God’s communion with his people.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 6:01 PM

Peace, Milkman!          *smile*                 I went back and looked at that again and am withdrawing it as a possible reference.  What I was hoping to share was a good book on the Judaism of the Second Temple and some of that culture's apocalyptic views that flavoured our New Testament Background!               Will try again tomorrow when I'm not in quite the rush I have been in tonight.    Sorry!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 6:05 PM

@ Milford, no worries. Thanks.

mm.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 6:18 PM

Look at this set Milkman. You may find it interesting. I have the paper volumes at home, waiting on the digital set. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series 

Lynden Williams Communications

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 6:37 PM

@ Lynden.

Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm not sure about The Seventh Day Adventist group. Not quite sure how to say this, so please forgive me one and all. Aren't the SDA group heretical? 

Not looking for a theological battle, I'd probably lose, but maybe some polite direction.

humbly yours

mm.

mm.

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 6:42 PM

@ Denise,

I have Richard Bauckham's The Climax of Prophecy. It seems that your quote from Beale & Carson is dead on. He in so many words says that the Revelation must be read with Jewish sources (extra-biblical) and OT sources together. 

mm.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 7:13 PM

Milkman:
Aren't the SDA group heretical? 

Being one I say no. Wink But that does make me speak from a biased perspective. Look at the qualifications of the authors (might find some on wikipedia) or the areas of speciality. 

Peruse some of these articles and see for yourself. www.logos.com/sda many of the authors have Phd's from recognized universities. Run a search in your library on some of their names and see what comes up. Search  Updated search for more accurate results.

Lynden Williams Communications

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 7:30 PM

@ Lynden,

I didn't realize that you were a pastor in the SDA church. I looked up your Faithlife profile after I wrote it. No offence.

mm.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 7:32 PM

@ Milkman. None taken. By the way I use my wife's pic as my avatar.

Lynden Williams Communications

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Milkman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 7:43 PM

LOL. 

mm.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 8:08 PM

Milkman:
Aren't the SDA group heretical? 

On Logos forums - no one is a heretic. We aren't sufficiently united to be able to agree on the definition of a heretic.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 11 2014 8:56 PM

Milkman:

@ Denise.

Why Ezekiel?

While a knowledge of many elements of the OT are necessary, Zeke is the most referenced of all.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

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