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Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 10:54 PM

David Paul:

Paul C:

David Paul:

Are you prepared to apply that condition to all marriage vows?

It is not I who is applying conditions. It seems I asked a question. Please mellow out. I'm not arguing with you.

I didn't take it as arguing with me. I took it as a question asserting a possibility that has logical consequences. I am just trying to get you to see those consequences through so as to determine if the question is valid. Questions can be as invalid as assertions can be. My point is that I don't think anyone wants to "go there" with regard to trying to determine if His Name was invoked in an agreement before we accept it as valid.

Nevertheless, Genesis considers marriages to have been consummated even prior to when "men first began to call on the name of the Lord."  I have noted previously that numerous names are used to designate God in the OT and that what is important is not the specific name invoked. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 10:54 PM

David Paul:
My point is that I don't think anyone wants to "go there" with regard to trying to determine if His Name was invoked in an agreement before we accept it as valid.
Well, I for one have gone there. I was married by a justice of the peace. God was nowhere to be found. It ended in utter ruin, and I know why. God was not a part of it. I'ts not about invoking a name...but inviting His presence.

Posts 4919
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 10:59 PM

Paul C:

David Paul:
Those people ARE married and it is VALID IN YHWH'S SIGHT.

There used to be marriages performed by Justices of the peace...and ships captains. with no mention of God. Do you hold that they are a covenant with YHWH? Yes the Gibeonites entered into an agreement but they called on God's Name. It was not a ritual with an unknown god.

I didn't say that such vows were covenants with YHWH, just that it was a valid, binding covenant in His sight. Mt. 5:37 is saying agreements are binding even if a specific vow of emphasis isn't attached (i.e. His Name, heaven, earth, Jerusalem, etc.).

Though marriage is not Biblically sanctioned for same sex couples, the vows of commitment are binding on those who willfully make such vows.

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:11 PM

Paul C:

David Paul:
My point is that I don't think anyone wants to "go there" with regard to trying to determine if His Name was invoked in an agreement before we accept it as valid.
Well, I for one have gone there. I was married by a justice of the peace. God was nowhere to be found. It ended in utter ruin, and I know why. God was not a part of it. I'ts not about invoking a name...but inviting His presence.

I suspect that God was not a part of it in your day-to-day life (although that would not automatically solve all problems).  It was not that it was a justice of the peace who married you and who did not pronounce some religious formula. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:17 PM

David Paul:
Though marriage is not Biblically sanctioned for same sex couples, the vows of commitment are binding on those who willfully make such vows.
>>>>>>> Matthew 22:20–22 

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:20 PM

George Somsel:
It was not that it was a justice of the peace who married you and who did not pronounce some religious formula. 
Of course not. I'm trying to make the point that it was because I did not consult or include God in the process. The reference to the J.P was meant to point out government intrusion into the process.

 

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:20 PM

Paul C:

David Paul:
Though marriage is not Biblically sanctioned for same sex couples, the vows of commitment are binding on those who willfully make such vows.
>>>>>>> Matthew 22:20–22 

Wherefrom you conclude what that you consider pertinent to the discussion?

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:23 PM

Paul C:

George Somsel:
It was not that it was a justice of the peace who married you and who did not pronounce some religious formula. 
Of course not. I'm trying to make the point that it was because I did not consult or include God in the process.

I'm glad to hear that you apparently do not consider the process to be some magic wand that you wave over it so that everything is OK.  Many Christians who enter into church weddings with all of the appropriate formulae also end up with problems.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:30 PM

I asked this question earlier, and didn't get a reply. Possibly you can address it now.

Paul C:
Can anyone show me where Scripture defines marriage as anything but an agreement between a man, a woman, and GOD? (We do see subtle nudges from the parents) Big Smile  Is there Evidence that there had to be a Man Of The Cloth presiding and Pronouncing a couple Man and Wife? ...Any reference to a marriage certificate provided by the government? Is there a limit on the number of wives...except for leaders? ... or are these all Traditions of Men?

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:38 PM

Paul C:

I asked this question earlier, and didn't get a reply. Possibly you can address it now.

Paul C:
Can anyone show me where Scripture defines marriage as anything but an agreement between a man, a woman, and GOD? (We do see subtle nudges from the parents) Big Smile  Is there Evidence that there had to be a Man Of The Cloth presiding and Pronouncing a couple Man and Wife? ...Any reference to a marriage certificate provided by the government? Is there a limit on the number of wives...except for leaders? ... or are these all Traditions of Men?

In the garden we know that they imported an Episcopal priest who performed the ceremony from the Book of Common Prayer and witnessed by an entire congregation.  Wink

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 406
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 12 2014 11:42 PM

With those words of wisdom, I will take my leave...God Bless

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 12:21 AM

Paul C:
Can anyone show me where Scripture defines marriage as anything but an agreement between a man, a woman, and GOD? (We do see subtle nudges from the parents) Big Smile  Is there Evidence that there had to be a Man Of The Cloth presiding and Pronouncing a couple Man and Wife? ...Any reference to a marriage certificate provided by the government? Is there a limit on the number of wives...except for leaders? ... or are these all Traditions of Men?
ALL TRADITIONS OF MEN !

Posts 4919
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 5:29 AM

Paul C:

I was married by a justice of the peace. God was nowhere to be found. It ended in utter ruin, and I know why. God was not a part of it.

Perhaps He was not part of it, but the obligation remains.

Paul C:

I'ts not about invoking a name...but inviting His presence.

I seriously doubt YHWH considers your distinction valid. It is the same kind of fabricated yet nevertheless nonexistent dichotomy as the so-called division of the moral vs. ceremonial stipulations of the law. Such talk isn't just foreign to His word, it is insulting as well. Ezek. 20:14, 22 His name isn't insignificant--it is holy...as holy as His presence. Nothing about YHWH is a magic talisman, but nothing about Him may be dismissed as being even slightly inconsequential, either. In fact, I seriously doubt that He can be invited unless He is identified correctly...how could He?

Posts 1070
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 6:18 AM

Schezic:

Denise:

I don't think there's a need to apologize ... always easiest to apologize for other people. 

First, Tes knows full well how the world works; he's far more world-wise than most of us

Exactly.! He started this thread knowing it would get out of hand. Anything to draw attention to his Pet Project. 

Now he wants to play the poor pitiful amputee card. Sorry. I ain't buying it. I called this thread for what it is from the get-go.

Tes Is trolling. And it worked.

Tes has been a part of these forums for longer than me, so I feel like I've gotten to know him in the time that I've been here, and he does not strike me as a troll. I'm not sure this was the best question to pose to these forums (yes, it has gotten out of hand), but I would not attribute a trolling motive to Tes. 

He's dealing with an issue that's a real one in some cultures--especially where he's from, and one of the interesting things about it is that our modern Western setting hasn't really dealt with it. So our Bible software is mostly silent on subject (even if the Bible itself is not). Tes has a particular understanding of the implications of a polygamist coming to Christ, and several people here have tried to point some things out to help him gain clarity on the situation. It's probably a better discussion for faithlife, but it didn't have to go off the rails here.

Posts 10950
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 6:40 AM

Just to clarify (since my name keeps showing up!), my comment concerning Tes is from living in an international marriage. Americans have a tendency to 'apologize' to non-Americans as if the non-Americans can't quite 'keep up'. My point concerning Tes, was that his faith is ancient and strong; more so than ours and he, himself, quite talented (having successfully merged several cultures; not easy).

Now, back yet again to the thread.  

William, surely you didn't write what is associated with your name?  'Our modern Western setting hasn't really dealt with it.'  Oh really.  Did someone forget the American solution ... slaughter of the innocents (Illinois, Missouri).  Even today in the part of our state where we don't know where it is, families struggle with what to do with polygamy.  A nice friend we have who runs a shop north of the canyon is highly proud of his grandfather with 10 wives.

What I don't know is how much of 'cultural' polygamy (Africa) is actually closely associated with religious polygamy?  Religions have a habit of trying to manage marriage.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 1070
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 7:24 AM

Denise:

William, surely you didn't write what is associated with your name?  'Our modern Western setting hasn't really dealt with it.'  Oh really.  Did someone forget the American solution ... slaughter of the innocents (Illinois, Missouri).  Even today in the part of our state where we don't know where it is, families struggle with what to do with polygamy.  A nice friend we have who runs a shop north of the canyon is highly proud of his grandfather with 10 wives.

What I don't know is how much of 'cultural' polygamy (Africa) is actually closely associated with religious polygamy?  Religions have a habit of trying to manage marriage.

Denise, that's the thing--the State (nation) has "taken care of" the issue of polygamy here. It's against the law, and that lines up well with normative church teaching. Polygamy is not something that the typical theologian has to deal with here, so it's not written about. If it were suddenly made legal, the way some other civil unions are growing in legality now, then I'm sure the church in the West would create all sorts of resources for us to digest. But in the US, unless you're running a ministry for ex-orthodox-Mormons, thinking through the polygamy of a previously pagan family isn't an American church issue.

By the way, when you say "our state" and "canyon"--what are you speaking about? You're in another country too, right? 

Posts 10950
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 7:49 AM

I understand your point, William, though I don't agree with it (not you). 

We live in Arizona, which Californians wish indeed were 'another country'.  And our legislature has taken a page out of the Putin 'how to make enemies and loose friends' by seeing if we can cut off electrical energy to California (until they vote to join our state of course).  We pump water out of the Colorado just to make sure the Californians don't get it.

But your 'theologians' illustrates much of what I (and MJ I think) call Logos blindness to anything not 1950s Christianity. Whether polygamy in the American west, the mixture of Catholic and native religion south of Tucson, spirit religion east of us, re-writing the NT since it doesn't say what it needs to say about Navajo culture, and in the American south, a riotous Christianity that good Christians don't know what to do with .... theologians are not players.

Point is, 'theologians' simply try to ignore it (the ones Logos installs in the library). Or like Richard, simply trot out 'God disapproves' with hazy scriptural speculation.   So when Tes shows up, all he illustrated was that the Logos forumites aren't quite sure what the 'correct' answer is ... they avoid all the other odd issues in America as well.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, May 13 2014 8:49 AM

Long ago and far away on a planet called Sedona, Arizona, there lived a Logos user named Denise.  Big Smile

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2963
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 8:40 AM

Richard DeRuiter:

Tes:

A pastor  taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation  ,mentioning about a certain part of his country  like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one  man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?

I appriciate your contribution.

There has been much written about this in various missiologies, but I'm not aware of anything in Logos that addresses this question specifically. (I would love to be corrected in this.) I wish Logos had more in the area of missiology and/or cross-cultural ministry.

I would say two things gleaned from my (sketchy) reading on this topic: 1) Marriage is intended by God to be between one man and one woman. 2) If a polygamous family comes to faith in Christ then divorcing all but the first wife would (in most cultures) be an incredible hardship on the remaining wives and their children, forcing upon them a life-style which they (again?) have no say in. I believe that 1Cor.7:20, in the context of household rules, can be applied to this situation. If a man who comes to faith decides that he cannot in good conscience remain married to his other wives, in my opinion he is obligated to care for them financially for the rest of their lives (unless they remarry).

But the question of children remains: do they stay with the father or the mother? Is it not best for the children to remain with both parents? The ethical impulse in the gospel to care for and defend the weakest (IMHO), trumps the concern for an optimal marriage arrangement. The weakest are the children, who by a forced divorce will be separated from either their father or their mother. The next weakest are the wives to be divorced: what happens to them financially, how will they be cared for, should they remain celibate & alone for the rest of their lives, are they given a voice at all in their own future, etc.? 

In a profoundly challenging interpretive statement Paul says "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Rom. 13:10 - see in context). However one applies the principle of the ideal Christian family in that situation (or in our context, for that matter), the principle of love should guide the interpretation and application of the 'rules.'

Another thought is that while God does not approve of polygamy, he does not reject polygamists (David: a man after God's own heart, e.g.), nor is there any Biblical example of God telling a polygamist to divorce all but his first wife.

Finally, and I say this as one who has worked and made painful mistakes in cross-cultural situations: we should resist any simple solution to such a complex, cross-cultural social reality.

NOTE: I present these thoughts to Tes for his thoughts. I don't intend to argue for or against this position with anyone. Tes, if you would like further clarity on what I've said above, I'd be glad to oblige.

Thank you Richard, for taking time to bring together the facts about this issue according the Word of God. I am really very satisfied by your comments, its really amazing explanation!

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 4919
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 15 2014 3:22 PM

For what it's worth, "love" is defined by YHWH's will pretty much entirely. In order to love anyone, you must exercise YHWH's will toward them.

This subject reminds me of Jer. 19:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9...particularly verses 4 and 5. Christian leaders who go around ripping families apart (effectively sacrificing them) in order to fulfill the will of a god who is not YHWH (because as verse 5 says, it never entered His mind to demand or speak of such a travesty) are sowing a whirlwind for themselves.

How does this subject relate to Ezra's command for the Israelites to put away their "foreign" wives and children? Without knowing what the operative issue is, disaster looms like an avalanche, and "do-gooders" will be the ignoramuses who set the calamity in motion.

All of this...done in the name of Lord Jeeeezus...for his glory...and He says "I never knew you." Mt. 7:23 

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