Church of Christ Library for Logos Bible Software

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 9:59 AM

Super.Tramp:

Daniel Lange:
But concerning those who simply "bear a name," of the church of Christ, yet adhere to those doctrines unfamiliar to the New Testament and members of the churches of Christ, these are not intended to have part in the church of Christ Library for Logos Bible Software. 

Rather exclusive.   Who passes judgement?

I think Daniel is having the wrong attitude in trying to put this "Package" together and there might be some speculation on his part as to who is liberal and who is not.  For example, Brother Wayne Jackson, whom I love dearly, is getting crucified by other brethren who think he's dead wrong just because he's teaching that you can pray to Jesus; and as a result, they are attacking him with books and articles just because he believes you can pray to Jesus.  Personally, after studying both sides I don't think addressing our Lord Jesus during our prayers will send someone to hell or make him liberal; yet that's what's being done to Brother Jackson.  I don't think this issue should divide the church, but then again, we have some, within the Body of Christ, who just love to take things to the extreme and start labeling good sound brethren as liberals just because they don't agree with them on some minor doctrinal points that have become dogmatic in their own eyes.  Last I checked, my beloved Brother Wayne Jackson believes in "Head Covering" - personally, I don't agree with him, but is not a salvation issue and I won't condemn him or label him a liberal just because he interprets 1 Cor. 11 the way he does.  I know several good brethren who have been labeled wrong by extremist and that to me is not the right attitude to have.  It's sad to see those individuals divide the church over, what most of the time have been, petty things.

I also believe that if you want a "Restoration Base Package" (that's how I would call it) you are going about it the wrong way.  You should contact the Publishers first and once you get them in, then get the users to unite with you in the effort of pre-ordering the base package to be able to make it a reality.  What good is it if you get enough people interested, but the publishers don't want to publish with Logos? especially if they have your mentality, saying, "Well, Logos is not part of the Church of Christ, so we don't want to Publish with them."

We cannot go to extremes.  There's a lot of good scholarship that can be included in the "Restoration Base Package."  Great sound brethren, members of the Church of Christ, have used conservative material from scholars that belong to other denominations to defend their own "doctrinal points" that some label "Church of Christ doctrine."  Just to name a few:  Adam Clark, Albert Barnes, Thayer, Ray Summers, John Wesley (those are old school); from the new/modern school: Robert H. Stein has been quoted, Jack Cottrell, Darrel Bock, Leon Morris, and several others.  

To put it from a different perspective Daniel, think about the songs we sing from "our song books" most, if not, all of them have been written by Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc.  Some of our favorite songs were written even by a woman who teaches us and admonishes us through the lyrics she wrote (e.g. A Wonderful Savior by Fanny Crosby).  Are we gonna stop singing that just because a woman wrote it? No.

I think Brother Thomas B. Warren's logical and Biblical advice is appropriate here (well, it's the Holy Spirit's through Paul's advice): "Prove all things hold fast that which is good." (1 Thess. 5:21).

I'm not arguing here, but I think as members of the church we need to focus on our attitude.  A lot of inexperience, young preachers who just came out of "preaching school" think that the first thing they have to do to become successful is: To debate and prove everybody wrong and say that "the church of Christ's doctrine is the only good doctrine." I think we need to go back to the Bible and study with individuals so they can see for themselves "what the Bible teaches" instead of what the "church of Christ teaches."

May God grant you the wisdom to handle His Word aright! (2 Timothy 2:15).

DAL

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 10:00 AM

Rosie Perera:
Here is their own defense against the charge of exclusivity (I'm just pointing it out, not endorsing it):

Thank you for the reference. I read it. The point sinks into a debate between salvation by faith or by works. I don't want to go there.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 3561
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 10:05 AM

Daniel Lange:
I'm not sure how this information might help you, and it appears that you would not identify with churches of Christ.

Basically, I'm trying to figure out whether it might be worth it to Logos to put out a library base package targeted for the churches of Christ, either the ones you like or the broader 1 million plus group. Right now it's looking to me as though Logos would be better served targeting the broader group, just based on numbers.

You are right that I don't identify with your denomination. I'm much too "conservative"/"traditional" for you.

Posts 17
Daniel Lange | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 11:21 AM

Hi again DAL,

I wanted to briefly respond to your post, though I believe that it is not particularly relevant to the purpose of this forum (i.e. you either identify with churches of Christ and would like to join the group to help contribute to the work, you do not). However, given the length of your response, I do want to give you the courtesy and provide some explanation.

First, concerning your judgment of attitude and your speculation of my being speculative, the basis of your judgment is unfounded. God judges men leftward or rightward from those who walk the narrow road. Further, I have spoken nothing of the doctrine of prayer, the issue of head coverings, or the quotation of denomination commentators (which, by the way, when done properly only sets forth evidence, and doesn't necessitate a full endorsement). It is further well understood by the administration of this work, that in handling the publications and resources of men as a package Library of resources on Logos Bible Software, that there will be some publication included by authors who may not fully comply with the doctrine of Christ. However, our purpose is to minimize such error. There will be a degree of judgment in this matter, but that is why the Church of Christ Library for Logos is not an authoritative source of doctrine, but a mere aid to biblical study amongst churches of Christ, and even those who believe they would benefit from the resource.

Your assertion concerning the song books also holds very little weight to this forum. The purpose of the forum is to announce a work for fellow preachers and members in the body of Christ to join in the labors and, key point here, place brotherhood publication in a package for purchase. It is quite obvious that I use Logos, and thus have in my possession several works of men that I do not find myself in fellowship with, so what would the purpose be of this particular package for development if it did not make such a separation? If particular exclusions offend you, you are again free to create your own work and ask others to join in that work. 

Concerning your blanket statements in the last paragraph, I again see little to no substance to your conclusions, or relevance. I have not spoken of anything concerning what the "church of Christ teaches," as that would be a non-authoritative source for establishing doctrine. I agree, go back to the Bible. This is the doctrine of the churches of Christ, and this is what the faithful "churches of Christ teach," not left, not right, but faithful churches of Christ. We are looking for members who will join in creating a Library of publications from the faithful churches of Christ that help to establish what the Bible teaches. If you would like to have a debate about what the Bible teaches, and thus what faithful churches of Christ teach, that is a debate I would be willing to have on another forum.

Again, I encourage all to see my references to Lynden if you have any questions about who are the churches of Christ and if you would identify with the Lord's church, and thus desire to join this work. Thank You.

Posts 483
Gary Butner, Th.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 12:04 PM

Mark and James, it's very obvious to me both of you are members of the churches of Christ.  I have little use for liberalism or legalism, and I identify with those who love The Lord and His grace. I have been a Logos user since 1993, and I know Bob Pritchett.  do you think we should form a group.  I lean towards forming a Restoration Movement Group. I would appreciate hearing your opinions?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 12:07 PM

DAL:
I think Daniel is having the wrong attitude in trying to put this "Package" together and there might be some speculation on his part as to who is liberal and who is not.

It still begs the question; "Who should pass judgement on the churches of Christ?" 

Should Daniel be the one who decides what should go in a Logos package? 

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Bill Shewmaker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 12:21 PM

Gary Butner:

Mark and James, it's very obvious to me both of you are members of the churches of Christ.  I have little use for liberalism or legalism, and I identify with those who love The Lord and His grace. I have been a Logos user since 1993, and I know Bob Pritchett.  do you think we should form a group.  I lean towards forming a Restoration Movement Group. I would appreciate hearing your opinions?

Obviously Gary, I am neither Mark nor James, but I would be appreciative of a Restoration Movement Group. I am from an Independent Christian Church, but tend toward the more conservative "right." I have the Gospel Advocate Commentaries in that other program and use them right alongside of my Logos resources. I have several of Everett Ferguson's works because I like his scholarly approach to our history. I would like to see more "NI" works such as already mentioned, i.e., John Mark Hicks, etc., and some by Al Maxey or Steven Clark Goad. We NEED a great collection of Restoration Movement scholarship.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 12:47 PM

Elsewhere in the forums, I have supported a Restoration Movement package. I think anything narrower would be difficult to market.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 12:48 PM

Bill Shewmaker:
We NEED a great collection of Restoration Movement scholarship.

I welcome any and all College Press published works. The Bible Study Textbook series has been in Pre-Pub too long. I hope that is not an indication of a lack of interest.

I would also like to see the Gospel Advocate and Coffman commentaries.

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 1:07 PM

Daniel, the best way to get Logos interested, is to start a new thread, and list resources that you would like to see enter Logos. Then get fellow Church Of Christ members to chime in on the thread giving their support.

List the top ten books you want in Logos and start talking to the publishers to get a contract going with Logos. If there is sufficient interest in the resources, and Logos and the publishers can agree on the details, Logos WILL publish.

Make sure to put it in the suggestion forum, as Logos staff, do not monitor this forum as closely as the Suggestion Forum.

Lynden Williams Commu

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Lynden Williams | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 1:08 PM

If a title catches my interest and I have the money, I WILL buy.

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Daniel Lange | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 1:32 PM

Thank you Lynden. That is very insightful. It is evident that this post has gone "south" so to speak. The purpose of this thread was to announce the work and continue building up a list of members in churches of Christ who use Logos and would offer to contribute to the work. It has created a large degree of confusion as you can see, since there are several movements that have sprung out of churches of Christ (some liberal, and some anti), yet continue to identify themselves with churches of Christ. A reverse method may be more successful as you suggest here. Thanks again.   

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 1:34 PM

If I understand Daniel correctly, he's attempting to create a library, to which a series of members can purchase and have a reasonable assurance what they're reading is consistent with their faith (or as Daniel says, the New Testament church).

Personally, I think that's great.  I'd recommend that for many smaller groups, especially if they can fund a significant portion of the cost that Logos must pay.  And I wouldn't be surprised if indeed Logos invited Daniel to do just that.  It'd especially be great for groups that having preaching schools, etc. and even better with missionaries being trained individually overseas.

That said, I'd think to be successful, there'd need to be a clue in the name more than 'not liberals or antis'.  Or 'not liberals or legalists'. 

But ignoring the naming, Daniel's invitation I would hope to be great example for other groups as well.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 7257
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 1:47 PM

Super.Tramp:

DAL:
I think Daniel is having the wrong attitude in trying to put this "Package" together and there might be some speculation on his part as to who is liberal and who is not.

It still begs the question; "Who should pass judgement on the churches of Christ?" 

Should Daniel be the one who decides what should go in a Logos package? 

Answer to question 1: Christ will judge the churches of Christ, as He has been appointed to be judge.

Answer to question 2: It comes across as if he wants to be the one who decides, but he's not clear on that either.

Posts 7257
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 1:57 PM

MJ. Smith:

Elsewhere in the forums, I have supported a Restoration Movement package. I think anything narrower would be difficult to market.

One of our former members has spoken wisely! Wink

Paul quoted poets and philosophers of his days, we, too, should do the same when it comes to having a "Restoration Base Package" that includes more than what a "narrow" group would have to offer.  The church is divided as it is and by narrowing it down we'll divided it even more and that will leave us with only a few articles online and a few books here and there - I think we should include "Restoration" in a broader sense.

By the way, Daniel's references to Lynden are just references that contains information about the church of Christ that has already been elaborated.  Those references are not our creeds, our only creed is the Bible - i.e. The Word of God! Yes

DAL

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 2:14 PM

Super.Tramp:

Bill Shewmaker:
We NEED a great collection of Restoration Movement scholarship.

I welcome any and all College Press published works. The Bible Study Textbook series has been in Pre-Pub too long. I hope that is not an indication of a lack of interest.

I would also like to see the Gospel Advocate and Coffman commentaries.

Me too! Though to be honest, Gospel Advocate is a little outdated.  The only good volumes that have some meat on them are the ones by Guy N. Woods and McGarvey; the others are way too simple for me to invest my money on the whole set - plus, I already own it in another software.  Now Coffman has more scholarship and is a complete OT and NT set, I'd rather push for that one, though I haven't used them in a long time.  I would also go for the church of Christ version of the Tyndale commentaries - i.e. The Living Word Commentary Series and the several Denton/Shertz Lectureship Books which would be (sort of) the equivalent to the Preaching the Word Series by Kent Hughes.

I commend Daniel's suggestion, but I think he should just go ahead and contact Logos so they can guide him better as to how to go about this whole process.  I think there's plenty of material on the Restoration movement (broader sense) that could/would make for a great new line of Restoration Base Packages that would cover from Starter all the way through Portfolio.  It's all a matter of pulling the right strings to make it a reality.

By the way, one thing I love about Coffman is how most of his work contain the famous "catch phrase" (if you would) ---- "As 'so and so' aptly said...." or "As 'so and so' stated..." and then he goes on to quote non church of Christ commentators.

DAL

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DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 2:22 PM

And to Brother Daniel: The whole point of writing about Wayne Jackson, how he gets crucified by others for teaching head covering and the use of song books that are not written by members of the church of Christ was to get you to see that you cannot get too narrow in your approach to this new line of Restoration Base Package because that would pretty much leave you with nothing but a few resources that will not even make a Silver Base Package.  We would barely get to Bronze if you narrow it down too much.  We'd probably have to start with "Starter" then "Semi-Starter" and then "Bronze" LOL so you gotta be a little bit more open.

DAL

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 2:25 PM

Daniel Lange:
The purpose of this thread was to announce the work and continue building up a list of members in churches of Christ who use Logos and would offer to contribute to the work.

Please clarify. Are you a new product manager that works for Logos? 

I am still doubtful excluding those groups closest to your own is productive.

Who decides what is acceptable for this package?

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Posts 389
James C. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 3:17 PM

Gary Butner:

Mark and James, it's very obvious to me both of you are members of the churches of Christ.  I have little use for liberalism or legalism, and I identify with those who love The Lord and His grace. I have been a Logos user since 1993, and I know Bob Pritchett.  do you think we should form a group.  I lean towards forming a Restoration Movement Group. I would appreciate hearing your opinions?

I'd be happy to be part of a "Restoration Movement" Group dedicated to trying to get a "Restoration Movement" base Package in Logos.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 16 2014 3:17 PM

Daniel Lange:
The purpose of this thread was to announce the work and continue building up a list of members in churches of Christ who use Logos and would offer to contribute to the work.

It sounds as if the best route for you to take is the PB route I've mentioned before. That is the only way to maintain as narrow a perspective as you appear to want as Logos for business reasons needs to address broader markets. Put another way, Logos' apparent thrust currently is (1) to expand the languages that it serves and (2) to address the major theological streams e.g. it is an Orthodox product manager not a Russian Orthodox Church in Exile product manager.

Daniel Lange:
It is evident that this post has gone "south" so to speak.

Actually, I've been pleased at the degree to which the forums users have not spoken judgmentally/insultingly regarding the various subgroups - I unfortunately have a reputation of "police" because I don't allow slander or libel in my living room.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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