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Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 14 2009 9:53 PM

I hope we can get some official word on this during business hours on Monday.  I have spent thousands of dollars over the years and knowing I cannot give this to one of my sons someday without paying a huge fee is like the government taxing income twice.  If you buy a paper book, you can give to anyone without paying the publisher twice for the book.  And what happens to my download purchases?  Can I pass those on or not?

I LOVE logos since the first beta test days through the Mac beta test, but these kinds of policies do have an impact on how I promote Logos to others... maybe I will even need to blog on this depending on the response.  I hope this question is asnwered soon.

Thanks Logos.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 9947
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 14 2009 10:46 PM

Bohuslav Wojnar:
Hey guys, George wants to start a new polemic on the salvation assurance Smile ...Don't go to Heaven alone, take somebody with you... (not something, ha)

No, let's not.  I was just yanking your chain a bit. 

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 165
Wayne | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 7:36 AM

i believe the transfer fee applies to partial transfer of resources. This subject came up on newsgroups a year ago or so. Bob posted and said that when it involves a whole library transfer due to death, etc. that it can be done for a nominal fee. It just involves entering the database and showing a change in ownership.

I am looking at seeing most of my paper library shredded in a few years. International shipping fees are so much more expensive than they used to be. I am glad that I can take my Logos library with me. When it is time to pass it one, it will go to one of my kids or some new theological student. But since I don't have to pack it each time that I move I intend to keep it for many years. My paper library with or without Logos will be left behind. Most retired ministers/missionaries end up leaving their paper libraries behind due to not having strength and energy to take it along with them on each move. I plan to take my Logos "parchments" with me.

Posts 58
ZoesProudDaddy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 10:48 AM

Ok, so I just contacted Logos and spoke with a rep. She said that the disclaimer is more geared for people who are looking to sell their library because they don't want it any longer and/or are looking to make a profit. She said that if a customer was just wanting to transfer their complete library to someone else than the downloaded resources would be included. It also would have a flat fee and wouldn't be 10% of the entire cost but would be closer to the $20 minimum. However I would still like to have Bob or someone respond here.

Posts 1962
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 11:43 AM

I agree that it is necessary for Bob to respond.  It would be good if on the website there was an actual policy written up.  This IS an issue.  Paper books get inherited by children or church library or to friends.  Libronix books I hope also to pass onto my  child or children if possible...or if no children...obviously I would want to will it to someone.  I dont think it should just die with me...

Posts 2703
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 1:11 PM

alanleerosenaur:

She said that the disclaimer is more geared for people who are looking to sell their library because they don't want it any longer

 I remember last year i bought a product from a third party namely the Bible History commentary which at the time was not available or offered by Logos. Later on the Bible History commentary was being offered as part of a collection of the Northwestern Publishing House electronic library in Logos. I called Logos to inform them about this and that i had purchased the product from the Northwestern Publishing House.  I was informed that they could not offer me a discount neither could they break the collection to accommodate my needs. When i inquired about what would happen to my spear copy as i was purchasing a new copy as part of the Northwestern Publishing House electronic library. I was informed that i could sell it or give it away (Logos i am sure would have a record of this on file).

 I want to give it away, i do not want to profit from it but to get a transfer of license would cost 10% of the retail cost, why? Logos refuse to break the collection at the time and insisted i pay for the whole collection if i wanted it.  They want 10% of the retail price from the product i want to give away free (to my brother) even with the mitigating circumstance, which they are aware of before their version of the Bible History commentary was publish as part of Logos Northwestern Publishing House electronic library Hmmmm.

Ted  

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 1962
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 2:45 PM

Well, history is history.  When a company grows and gets very big...they begin to lose the the very things that caused so many to be attracted to them.  I can see the old time prophets of the past years gearing up with their "i told you so' follow up messages. 

What we all want is to be sure our investment is not going to disappear with new technology. My kids loved playing educational games on our xp PC.  Then Vista came and the games dont work.  That is my greatest fear.  The day will come when logos discontinues their product line in the form that it is in and technology will leave what we have far behind...or when we wish to leave our vast investment with a younger disciple or sell it for dirt cheap consider the expense we paid to have it (as we would with paper books), we wont be able to do so.

This is my reasoning behind encouraging open format for Libronix.  The fear has always been that as other companies have folded or gone under or have become irrelevant, or have changed the course of their business, our investment in book purchases will dry up and we will not have our digital books.

Any amount of 'encouragment' from the CEO that they wont let this happen are to me, empty promises because they are promises that cannot necessarily be fulfilled, as much as they wish to fulfill them...unless Logos puts safe guards in their product to ensure use for at least our lifetime, if not, the lifetime of our children

Mark

Posts 2724
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 15 2009 7:18 PM

A fee for such a thing is nonsense unless they are merely saying that it costs them time and money for some clerical worker to make a database entry change.  If that is the reason, then a fee of 10 percent of the value is ridiculously high.  I could see a single fee of 10 bucks or even 20 dollars if you want to be over pricing it.  But there is no good reason for such a fee in this technical age other than producers of digital content just don't get it.  I can give away my entire library to anyone I like and there is no cost.  Transferring a digital library should not have a cost either except that companies like Logos have made the choice that since a select few are pirating their content the will be treating all of there customers like criminals and assuming we will too.

Posts 3665
Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 5:08 AM

George Somsel:

BTW:  Who says you're going to heaven anyway?  Do you think old farts like us make it?  Big Smile

George -

They may need you in the other place - there won't be many down there telling them what you have to say.

Blessings,

Floyd

Blessings,
Floyd

Pastor-Patrick.blogspot.com

Posts 31
Justin Kooy | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 2:23 PM

MarkSwaim:

I agree that it is necessary for Bob to respond.  It would be good if on the website there was an actual policy written up.  This IS an issue.  Paper books get inherited by children or church library or to friends.  Libronix books I hope also to pass onto my  child or children if possible...or if no children...obviously I would want to will it to someone.  I dont think it should just die with me...

Bob has addressed this in the past.  Here are two blog postings you should read.

http://blog.logos.com/archives/2008/10/is_my_invesment_in_e-books_safe.html#comment-349262

http://blog.logos.com/archives/2005/12/heirloom_books.html

Justin K.

Logos Ministry Development

360-685-4441

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 6:31 PM

Bob might have addressed the issue a few years ago but the answer is far from being  satisfactory

He argues that under most circumstances one cannot pass individual licenses to another person “because we offer a really good price in exchange for licensing to one user”.

This statement is ambiguous because there is a difference between “one user at a time” and “one user only and ever”. The price structure of logos resources is not that different from that of vendors who allow the free transfer of licenses  (if one excludes programs like prepub and the academic program). As such, the argument of low cost does not stand when justifying restricting a license to only “one user only and ever”

This conflicts with the EULA since one can transfer a resource by paying 10% of the retail price of the resource.

I agree that one cannot break up collections and sell resources in that collection because individual resources were not separately licensed in the collection

However, this is different from individual collections and standalone resources in a library. They were bought separately and one should be able to sell or give them away separately (as a collection or as a standalone resource) with a “small service fee” if necessary (how is it different from everyday free customer support, I do not know)

I highly doubt that 10% or the retail price (not the real price which is the sale price) qualifies as a “small service fee”. It takes the same effort to make changes in a database for a collection of 80 titles like Anchor Bible Commentaries or for a standalone book that costs $15.

However, the fee for the former would be $400 and the fee for the latter would be $20 (the minimum transfer fee being $20)

One should be able to transfer entire individual collections or standalone resources for a “small service fee” per transfer not per resources (if such fee is needed at all). It should be a flat fee that is independent of the price of the collection or resource

Maybe Logos should work towards automating transfers, the same way purchases are automated online (having done programming myself, I know that the implementation would not be that complicated especially since Logos already has an interface compatible with that task)

The “small service fee” (as opposed to the 10% transfer fee for resources) should not be restricted to the entire library because one might wish to donate or sell individual collections or standalone resources related to area of study in which one does not specialize anymore while wanting to keep the rest of the resource. This all or nothing approach (apart from keeping individual collections together) does not make much sense. To take a music analogy, I understand that if I buy an album, I cannot sell individual songs (I need to sell the whole album but it would be ridiculous to ask me to sell my entire library of songs just because I want to get rid of my collection of country songs).

The bottom line is as follows

It is a good thing that Logos recognizes that users have the right to transfer resources

However, it does not make sense that only the entire library can be transferred (per Bob post) or that one would have to pay 10% of the retail price for individual collections or standalone resources

 

Alain

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 6:43 PM

Agreed, this condition seems extremely illogical and personally, it disappoints me that a Bible software company would impose such a condition on its customers. I have discussed with other Bible software companies on this and none of the other ones I have used impose this sort of transfer restriction. Basically, I don't own my Logos resources, I'm only obtaining a license to use them. This seems very "Microsoftish" and reminds me of the painful OEM days I've experienced.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1962
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 8:10 PM

Bob's answer does not look like an official policy nor does it seem adequate enough to be an official policy.  From what I get from his past post, when I die or retire, I can give my entire library to my wife or a child for a fee that is 10% of the retail value.  If I have purchased thousands of dollars worth of books at prepub prices, I cannot imagine what retail value of my library would be today.  But it probably would be too much and yes, I am beginning to feel as if I dont own my purchases and have to start thinking of whether this type of library is what I really want.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 9:08 PM

I am still surprised that Bob or Phil have not commented to clarify this issue.  I am quite disheartened by this fact.  Nothing in the history of Bob's interaction indicates he does not care about such issues, so I hold out hope that it will be addressed shortly.

 

PLEASE!!

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 9:36 PM

I realized that, since I learned about that policy, I am thinking about buying new resources ONLY because I have strong hope this issue will be clerified. Otherwise I would have to stop buying any next collections and think about the alternative. I don't want to come back to the paper books however. But that looks to be the only safe way to really own the resources. Well, we will see... I hope.

Greetings

Bohuslav

Posts 71
Aeolus Jacobus | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 16 2009 11:30 PM

"Basically I don't own my Logos resources" 

 

You are right you don't own the resources. You own the license to the resources. As you own the licenses or "copies to" other items in other digital formats. You don't "own" the music you have on CD's/other digital formats or the movies you have on DVD/Blu-rays. This is a big issue the gaming industry as well. Its just the growing pains all media (and yes Logos sells media) are facing in the emerging digital age. I just wanted to point that out.

Posts 2703
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 1:07 AM

Aeolus Jacobus:

 You are right you don't own the resources. You own the license to the resources. As you own the licenses or "copies to" other items in other digital formats. You don't "own" the music you have on CD's/other digital formats or the movies you have on DVD/Blu-rays. This is a big issue the gaming industry as well. Its just the growing pains all media (and yes Logos sells media) are facing in the emerging digital age. I just wanted to point that out.

 

I think the above comment  misses the point. The music one has on CD's/other digital formats or the movies one has on DVD/Blu-rays can be sold or given away without a 10% retail fee from the vendor, there in lies the difference. From what i can gather so far, you don't even own the license it is on loan to you.

One needs to think carefully about this and look for other alternatives before investing heavily into Logos as i do. Some of us do like Logos and are disappointed by such a stringent policy but in good conscience cannot agree with the 10% retail policy. I think the heavy weights at Logos should look into this and address it fairly, forced loyalty is no loyalty at all. A policy that addresses the concerns of Logos customers and that of Logos is the best way forward. So far the only one's who benefit and who would cheer this policy on is Logos. Hands on heart Bob this is not right and your valued customers do deserve better than this and should have rights to a fairer policy. I cannot see how in principle i can introduce anyone anymore to go for Logos, and i am glad now i did not give up(sell/give away) my print copy, there was always going to be a catch.

Ted

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 31
Jonty | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 3:37 AM

An interesting forum string to read is: http://www.accordancebible.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3161&st=0  If you read from post 7 onwards you will see the discussion about the libronix transfer fee and the 'unofficial' accordance admins response. Yep definately no charges made for transfering of licences.

As someone who has invested in libronix and who wants to invest further I would like to know 'at least' that this 10% transfer fee would be waived in cases of the licence holder dying and the 'whole collection' being passed onto a 'sole beneficiary'. Also that this whole collection being passed onto a sole beneficiary would include the downloaded books (i.e. the whole collection I presently have access to)? This I would hope to be the minimum allowance made by Libronix?

Jonathan

My website: http://www.mackwell.co.nr/ the website of the missionary organization: http://www.wec-int.org/cms/ 

Posts 2736
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 4:20 AM

I agree 100%.

Bohuslav

Posts 1962
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 17 2009 4:32 AM

I agree as well.  Because at the moment, the only safe format seems to be pdf format.  I am disturbed by the downloadable book issue.  If I had known that, I would never have opted for downloadable books.  I dont even understand the issue of why downloadable books are in a different category as the same material being sent to you on a CD

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