Organizing Notes in Logos4

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Posts 24
Walter A. Svarczkopf | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jan 4 2010 12:25 PM

I just upgraded to Logos4 and was hoping to be able to simply start using it for actual work and study.  I have found that not to be the case.  One of the things that makes it very difficult for me is the way the notes files are arranged.  Previously, in Libronix, I was able to create new notes, organize and indent them (similar to the way the outline of chapters of a book were done.  Only when I clicked on the particular note on the left, would the text of the notes come up on the right side of the Notes pane.  In Logos4, it seems this outline format does not exist.  The notes have a title in one line, and then the text of the note in the next section.  Hence, if I have a notes file for a Book Study (i.e. Romans), and have different Notes under that Notes file (i.e. Introduction, Romans 1:1-7, Romans 1:8-17, etc.), it seems I have to scroll down past all the notes to get to the latest ones.  Is the way it is intended to operate?  Is there any way to only show the note titles like Libronix 3 used to do and only see the note content when I select that note?  I really want to move to Logos4, but there are some key things I depend upon that just don't seem to function, and I can't figure out how to make them work.  The help information is so minimal, I can't get much out of that for specific things like this.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 4 2010 1:07 PM

WalterASvarczkopf:
Is the way it is intended to operate?  Is there any way to only show the note titles like Libronix 3 used to do and only see the note content when I select that note? 

Notes are basically a coming soon feature. Expand/contract, print, sequence are all issues that have been raise. Yell loudly and often and we may harass Logos into raising it's priority - mind you priority alone may not be the issue slowing this down.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 24
Walter A. Svarczkopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 8:49 AM

Thanks for responding, M.J. 

In poking around in Logos4, I like a lot of what I see so far... However, for me... Note taking is the key to the whole thing.  I use Logos in preparation of Bible Studies, Adult Sunday School Classes and Sermons.  I keep my notes for an entire class in a single notes file (i.e. Romans).  There are two things I really like about this:

  1. Organizing the notes like a book (Chapters, Headings, Sections, etc.) and seeing that displayed like a table of contents on the left panel.
  2. Being able to type in cross references and have the tool create the Hyperlinks automatically.  

Neither of these features seem to be working, and until they are, the benefits of Logos4 do not outweigh the loss for me.  I even tried cutting/pasting some of my current notes on a study of Romans.  Most of my formatting was lost, but that was not the biggest issue.  The notes editor is very flaky and would abort the entire program doing the simplest editing. Funny, this forum seems to have a more stable editing platform than the current Logos4 does!

Perhaps I am using the Notes feature for far more than most people do.  I saw a couple of posts about providing Notes files for validation of the Notes import function they are working on.  Any chance of getting at least one of my files included in that?  Do you know how?

Posts 314
Steven L. Spencer | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 10:09 AM

Yes, the NOTES feature is of utmost importance to me. I hope LOGOS makes this a top priority! I have years worth of notes on L3. I want them on L4.  LOGOS, are you listening?

Posts 1531
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 10:12 AM

Steven L. Spencer:

Yes, the NOTES feature is of utmost importance to me. I hope LOGOS makes this a top priority! I have years worth of notes on L3. I want them on L4.  LOGOS, are you listening?

Yes, they are listening. They are currently being beta tested as we speak.

 

 

 

Posts 177
Dudley C. Rose | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 11:51 AM

Terry Poperszky:

 

Yes, they are listening. They are currently being beta tested as we speak.

Well, not exactly, yet.  Importing is, but the features mentioned by the OPs aren't, unless I'm missing something.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 12:26 PM

WalterASvarczkopf:
Any chance of getting at least one of my files included in that?  Do you know how?

There was a request for files in these forums - contact Bradley Grainger (sp.?) to see if there is still a chance to be included - or contact one of the people posting in the beta forum.

I was disappointed with the list of features in the new beta because it does not appear to address many of the notes problems. Logos has, however, reecreated the abort problem and has it listed as corrected in the current beta.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Anonymous | | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 1:39 PM

Notes have always been problematic in Logos.  Bob has consistently said for the last decade (and probably longer) that notes are for attaching a small piece of text to a verse something like a study Bible does.  Everytime we ask for something more, he repeats the mantra that Logos shouldn't be putting effort into creating a word processor.  I don't think he "gets" what we want.  There's an excluded third besides isolated annotations (a usefull feature to be sure) and a word processor (we all probably already have our own favorites there anyway).

What we need is a way to organize and analyze the copious amounts of information we gather using the tools.  The Favorites tool can go some distance for this.  That is, we can create a hierarchical outline with it, then attach shortcuts to resources, guides, note files, and clipping files in the outline.   But the granularity is too large.  I can't put shortcuts to particular clippings, or particular notes, or particular sections of a guide report.    I can't even rearrange my clippings within the clippings file.

Clippings are great for collecting information from resources, and even annotating it with notes.  But it stops there.  I need to rearrange them.  I need to collate them.  I need clippings of portions of Guide reports.  Tags are a beginning for the collation part.  Maybe if we could get collapsible groups of clippings grouped by tag value (a clipping would be in multple groups if it has multpile tags obviously), plus the ability to drag them around into a different order that would suffice.  Also, the clippings files need to stop being prisons.  I need to move them out of clippings and into OneNote to start doing the serious analysis.  There's just something about OneNote's ability to position objects in two dimensions on a page, within and outline, and be able to use highlights and ink to scribble, draw lines, and otherwise visualize data that can't be beat.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 2:10 PM

JeffreyGlenJackson:
Bob has consistently said for the last decade (and probably longer) that notes are for attaching a small piece of text to a verse something like a study Bible does

There is a definate break with that philosopy in Logos 4. One can attach a note to a verse in the Study Bible sense, but one can also attach notes at the Passage Guide level so that one can build a hierachical structure. For me, it is sentence-pericope-liturgical date. For most, I'd suspect verse-chapter-book. However, there are some issues that Bob's model raises that are not resolved:

  1. If notes are small pieces of text, then the volume of notes goes up and the need to organize (sequence and title) goes up as well.
  2. If the notes are to be small, then many of the notes in the Guides need to support multiple rather than single notes
  3. A common need, that the users thinks of as a "note," is an article found on the web. Often one is concerned that the web site is not "permanent" storage so one wishes to copy the resource into Logos. For PDF's, a link through Favorites is a decent solution. Is the new PBB going to fill the function for the average user or will notes or sermons be the only viable options?
  4. The days of text only notes are quickly disappearing. Several choices need to be made: (a) for standard diagrams (trees, outlines, mind maps ...) they need to be either drawn or attached in Logos (b) for visual and audio files, they need to be linked into Logos
  5. All data that a user generates for use in Logos has to fix into notes, sermons, PBB (and historical Lesson Builder). At the moment in L4 we are forced into notes.

My personal use of notes is primarily to store potential Bible Study questions or Bible Study lesson information blocks. This generates a high volume of small notes. I need these to roll up into pericopes (my definition doesn't quite match that of Logos) and the pericopes roll up into a liturgical service/day. I can't readily step out of Logos because I need the Bible reference functionality of Logos for selection ... I built a minimal one for my own db at one time - not fun, not pretty.

This is a case where Logos shouldn't rely on their usage statistics because what users want to do and what they can do are to far apart. I don't mind using other software to generate Notes material, but I do need Notes to retain format ,support links, and allow organization.

 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 24
Walter A. Svarczkopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 2:41 PM

All I really want is to be able to do what I did in Libronix... Why take valueable funcion away?  I use Logos for study and for teaching.  I create my actual handouts by cut/paste from Logos into a Word Processor.  However, for teaching, I use my laptop so I can quickly hyperlink to all the supporting verses I have found.  Here is an example of what a Noted file looks like for me. 

I organize a single Note file for the entire study, using specific notes, colored and indented to mimic what a book table of contents (Chapters, Sections, etc) might look like.  Each note on the left opens the larger text of notes on the right.  I use the simple formatting functions to make it readable.  And I use extensively the "Tag References as Hyupelinks" button to find all of the Bible references and create hyperlinks at one time.  I love that.  I need that.  Using the above, I can have a complete Bible Study in a note file.  For instances "Study on Romans".  I can have my questions, my answers, my biblical reference support, and I can jump around as I teach to read the supporting verses. 

This is what I use Logos for, to teach others.  It works beautifully right now.  I simply need the same note functionality that existed before.  Not asking for anything new, just asking that what I have please, PLEASE not be taken away.

 

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MJ. Smith:

WalterASvarczkopf:
Any chance of getting at least one of my files included in that?  Do you know how?

There was a request for files in these forums - contact Bradley Grainger (sp.?) to see if there is still a chance to be included - or contact one of the people posting in the beta forum.

In our current phase of testing, we'd prefer you to install the beta (see notes/warnings at http://community.logos.com/forums/t/8883.aspx), import your notes, verify that the import succeeded, and provide whatever feedback you think is necessary to help us improve the process. If you need help, post on the Beta Forum (http://community.logos.com/forums/78.aspx).

Posts 24
Walter A. Svarczkopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 8 2010 10:38 AM

Bradley,

OK.  I am willing to give that a try.  The warning sound pretty serious, so I think I will opt to try this on a machine that is not my usual one that I use for work and study.  I have another desktop machine that I use primarily for audio/visual work.  I just upgraded it to Windows7.  No problem there?  If not, I will give this a try and take a peak at the Beta.  I will attempt to import my notes.  If the capabilities of LDSL3 are being added, I will be inclined to actually consider switching over the L4 for my regular Bible Study work. 

Thanks. 

Walt

Posts 24
Walter A. Svarczkopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2010 9:51 AM

Bradley,

I installed the Logos 4 Beta version on a different computer... I imported all of my notes... For the most part, all of the data came in clean (as best as I can tell), and the Bible verse reference Hyperlinks look to have been created.  I have not checked them all, of course, but spot checking looks good.  So, from an importing point of view, it looks pretty good to me.  Some of the formatting from my original notes files did not come through clean, but, there were always some issues in the notes of LDLS3 with other than the default fonts.  The font stuff seems to operate better in L4, actually. 

So, it seems like the only thing I am missing in L4 Notes handling is the ability to organize my notes, the way I could in LDLS3.  Please see earlier post with snapshot of my LDSL3 notes file.  I used to be able to treat a Notes file almost like a book.  I could arrange the different notes within the file in whatever order I wanted.  I could indent notes, to form an outline.  All of this was visible in the left pane of the notes window, and I did not actually see the notes until I clicked on one in that left pane.  Then, on the right pane, I would see the full text of the note in the note editing pane.  This allowed me to manage my notes almost like a book, with chapters and sub-headings... This was VERY convenient for teaching.

L4 does not have any of these capabilities.  The notes in a notes file are all open and visible at the same time.  When a new note is added, it is added at the bottom.  Hence, in order to get to it, I need to scroll all the way to the end of the note file, to get to my latest note.  Also, there is no capability to rearrange note order in a notes file.  I don't know about others, but I tend to bounce around, working on different things at different times.  Being able to rearrange the notes in a file is of great benefit. 

At a minimum, what I would like to have is the ability to collapse the text of a note, so that only the note titles are visible.  I would also like the capability to move notes up and down within the notes file.  What I would REALLY like is for a note file to be treated just like any other book within L4, with a table of contents that is organized like a nested tree.  That way, I can collapse and expand any section of the tree I want, just like I do for any other book.  I really like the >> that opens and the << that closed the table of contents in L4.  Would it be possible to use this same code to organize and display notes files.  If it can be done, I think I would be fully ready to move over from LDSL3 to L4.  How do I formally make that request?

Posts 1
Jordan Boston | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 10:00 PM

I want to be able to import my old notes from L3 as well.  I put a-lot of time into adding notes to certain passages and want to have them carried right through from 3 to 4 in Logos.  What's the deal?

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 1 2010 10:30 PM

Jordan D Boston:

I want to be able to import my old notes from L3 as well.  I put a-lot of time into adding notes to certain passages and want to have them carried right through from 3 to 4 in Logos.  What's the deal?

Jordan, 

Logos is working on the note functionality in v4.  Back on July 4, 2009, Bob told us "Let me start by saying we ARE improving notes in the next release, and implementing many of the most commonly requested features."  The current release of Logos 4 note functionality is far inferior to that what we had in v3.

This being said, the beta version of V4 can import your V3 notes.  But the note functionality in v4 beta is still inferior to v3.

Posts 12
Peter R Mular | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 19 2010 8:56 PM

tom collinge:
But the note functionality in v4 beta is still inferior to v3.

 

I Totally agree.  The notes in V3 are miles better than in L4.  For me it is like the Vista/XP debacle.  I feel like I need to downgrade to get the best out of my software.  I payed a lot of money for something that I end up hoping will SOMEDAY work the way it should.

Posts 296
Jonathan West | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 4:25 AM

What about using favourites and folders as a way of organizing Notes (and other things such as Clippings)? See Mark Barnes' videos on sermon prep on the wiki ... In some ways this offers more power than Notes in L3 as you can add other stuff to Favourites.

www.emmanuelecc.org

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 6:11 AM

Jonathan West:

What about using favourites and folders as a way of organizing Notes (and other things such as Clippings)? See Mark Barnes' videos on sermon prep on the wiki ... In some ways this offers more power than Notes in L3 as you can add other stuff to Favourites.

I looked at this video when it was posted.  It might work if Logos is the only source for my sermon prep, but it isn't.  I use several websites and I use several printed books.  When I find things that I would like to keep from these various sources, I put these items in my notes.

As of right now, I use V3 simply because I cannot use my notes.

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 6:23 AM

This is one way to replicate what you've got in that screen shot..

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 20 2010 8:20 AM

Robert Pavich:

This is one way to replicate what you've got in that screen shot..

Robert, I cannot speak for anyone else, but this will not work for me because of the amount of time it would take to add my notes to my favorites.  I do not know how many notes I have, but I would not be surprised if the count is over 1,000. 

 

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