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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Aug 7 2014 9:42 AM

Now that 5.2b RC1 has been released, we're preparing for the release of 5.3 Beta 1 (which is not available yet but coming soon).

5.3 Beta 1 has a lot of major changes under-the-hood, and could potentially be unstable. These changes don't dramatically impact the UI, but are laying the foundation for future improvements in performance, scalability and functionality.

We recommend caution when installing this beta; as the beta testing warnings already state, it should be installed on a dedicated testing computer. We've been running these changes internally for several months without problems, but your system may be sufficiently different from our test computers that you could experience crashes or other problems.

If you don't want to be an early beta tester, you may wish to run "set update channel to default" right now to ensure that your system doesn't automatically download the beta.

Note that as previously announced] (and then amended for OS X 10.8) Logos 5.3 requires Windows 7 SP1 or Mac OS X 10.9 or later.

Here's what's changing:

  • 64 Bit. Logos is now a 64-bit program (for all Mac users, and for most Windows users). There isn't a separate installer; the program will automatically install the 64-bit version if your OS is capable of running it.
  • Code rewrite. A core component was rewritten in C# and native C++ for greater cross-platform support and performance. This has introduced a large amount of completely new code.
  • Memory-mapped I/O. Many Logos databases are now accessed through a technology known as "memory-mapped I/O"; while this should be faster, it's completely new code.
  • Logos resource display. The internals of the resource display were rewritten to support EXCITING NEW FEATURE.
  • New C++ compilers. The code is now compiled with the newest C++ compilers on both Windows and Mac.

The goal of these changes is to improve the foundation of Logos 5 without changing the user experience. However, since this is introducing a lot of completely new code, there may be (potentially significant) regressions. Please install with caution.

Posts 2756
Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 9:56 AM

Greetings Bradley;

I am looking forward to testing this. A question I have is bullet point 4, which was answered by highlighting the line. Smile

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:10 AM

That all sounds exciting--you're actually enticing me to join the beta channel!

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:11 AM

This is great news. The willingness to do refactoring is always a positive sign. (And I'm looking forward to the exciting new feature, too! Smile)

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:17 AM

While I don't dabble in the beta versions, this announcement is very encouraging to me. To think it was under wraps for a few months. Well done!

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:22 AM

Excited about this :)

Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:35 AM

Hi Bradley

Sounds exciting, looking forward to it.

Graham

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:39 AM

abondservant:
Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?

Logos is already multi-threaded.

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LogosEmployee

abondservant:
Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?

The app has been multithreaded since the launch of Logos 4.0; is there some specific use case where you think it could use more cores?

I have a 12-core CPU, so 79% means that 9 of them are maxed out. Smile

(Note that Windows and WPF only allow a single thread to manipulate UI elements. Thus, even though the app generates all the guide sections in parallel in the background, it's bottlenecked on the UI thread to display them to you. This isn't something we can easily work around.)

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Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 10:46 AM

Wow! +1 on all those points. That's an impressive amount of work for a point release. I realize some of those changes were probably forked a while back, but that's still an impressive turnaround. Looking forward to breaking it soon. Smile

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 11:14 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):

abondservant:
Any plans for multi-threaded codes to take advantage of multi-core processors?

The app has been multithreaded since the launch of Logos 4.0; is there some specific use case where you think it could use more cores?

I have a 12-core CPU, so 79% means that 9 of them are maxed out. Smile

(Note that Windows and WPF only allow a single thread to manipulate UI elements. Thus, even though the app generates all the guide sections in parallel in the background, it's bottlenecked on the UI thread to display them to you. This isn't something we can easily work around.)

Nice. I've never seen utilization that high - even during indexing on my octocore. Just assumed you were not doing that yet.



though on start, I've seen it spike to 30% and the indexer uses up to 45% apparently.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 11:22 AM

Should we take some pre-x64 benchmarks to see if there is any change?

Maybe search for: The NEAR And

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 11:24 AM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Logos is now a 64-bit program

Cheeky request: How about you can remove the 100 page export limit so we can fully test how Logos handles high RAM demands?

Posts 1048
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 11:28 AM

Mark Barnes:

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Logos is now a 64-bit program

Cheeky request: How about you can remove the 100 page export limit so we can fully test how Logos handles high RAM demands?

They could make it a command to unlock that feature: "ipromisenottoinfringecopyrightthisisonlyforspaceshifting"

Posts 5247
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 11:41 AM

It sounds very exciting... I have limited space on my MacBook Pro so I will not be doing the beta.. but can hardly wait till the new 64 bit stable version of Verbum to get released... This beta would lead me to believe the 5.3 will be only a few weeks or couple months at the most off. Good Luck, and thanks for the hard work.

-Dan

Posts 2733
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 1:49 PM

Sounds exciting. I am going to create a new Windows User Account to be able to test this new Beta. Thanks Bradley for the announcement.

Bohuslav

Posts 927
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 7:40 PM

I won't mess with the 5.3 beta 1 but I love where this is heading. I like L5 on my retina MBP since the last update, but 5.3 sounds like a major bump.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 7:43 PM

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
New C++ compilers. The code is now compiled with the newest C++ compilers on both Windows and Mac.

Meaning, not fully debuggedBig Smile.

Do these apply to the 32-bit Windows version?

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
64 Bit. Logos is now a 64-bit program (for all Mac users, and for most Windows users).

Exciting.

How much extra disk space will a 64-bit installation now require e.g. 20%, 30%, or more?

Bradley Grainger (Logos):
Memory-mapped I/O. Many Logos databases are now accessed through a technology known as "memory-mapped I/O"; while this should be faster, it's completely new code.

It's encouraging that you have been running the code for several months without problems. I'm reading the disadvantages at http://sqlite.org/mmap.html:-

  • Do #1 and #2 affect automatic recovery of corrupt databases?
  • Any impact of #3?
  • Does #5 mean that db's cannot be truncated on the drive because of this unused space?

Will "Out of memory" exceptions be likely with this new feature?

Will this exception be less likely to occur in WPF/.NET, and does it ask for a larger contiguous block of address space with a 64-bit app?

Will we have to re-index resources for 64-bit (or because of SQLite)?

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 490
Mr. Simple | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 7 2014 7:53 PM

Regarding multi-threaded operations on indexing.

I know in the past that function has been throttled to 4 threads due to assumptions about disk and SSD performance.

Technology on that front continues to rapidly advance.

Would logos consider re-visiting that issue and allow for more concurrent processing when the I/O subsystems can sustain that?

I have a PCI plug SSD which bypasses latency and throughput limits of SATA.

Just an thought

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LogosEmployee

Dave Hooton:

Meaning, not fully debuggedBig Smile.

Do these apply to the 32-bit Windows version?

Yes; all of the changes (except, of course, 64-bit binaries) apply to the 32-bit Windows version.

Dave Hooton:
How much extra disk space will a 64-bit installation now require e.g. 20%, 30%, or more?

About 10% (that's the binary files in the "System" folder).

Dave Hooton:

It's encouraging that you have been running the code for several months without problems. I'm reading the disadvantages at http://sqlite.org/mmap.html:-

  • Do #1 and #2 affect automatic recovery of corrupt databases?
  • Any impact of #3?
  • Does #5 mean that db's cannot be truncated on the drive because of this unused space?

  • #1 is mitigated by the fact that Logos 5 is primarily managed code (i.e., .NET) so stray pointers are exceedingly rare. #2 is a non-issue because the .NET wrapper for SQLite converts SQLite's recoverable disk I/O errors into unrecoverable exceptions anyway. On the whole, this won't impact automatic recovery.
  • None is expected. Although Logos and the Indexer can run simultaneously, they're basically never updating the same files. In the case where the Indexer is updating shared files, Logos puts up the "Preparing your library" screen and waits for it to finish.
  • DBs will not be truncated, but the space inside them will be used more efficiently when the "VACUUM" command is used. We don't see this as a big problem because generally our databases only ever grow in size.

Dave Hooton:
Will "Out of memory" exceptions be likely with this new feature?

We'll have to wait and see, but I expect that they will be greatly reduced.

Dave Hooton:
Will this exception be less likely to occur in WPF/.NET, and does it ask for a larger contiguous block of address space with a 64-bit app?

That's really an implementation detail of the Microsoft .NET JITter and GC, so I can't say for sure one way or the other.

Dave Hooton:
Will we have to re-index resources for 64-bit (or because of SQLite)?

No.

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