Compendium of Christian Theology on Community Pricing

Page 2 of 4 (70 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next >
This post has 69 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 10596
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 2:44 AM

P. Keith Larson:
What has historically happened is many people during that last week raise ridiculously low bids. If only these people had bid at a more realistic level in the first place the resource might have gone into production sooner. I am afraid this is what has happened with Barnes Notes.

Barnes Notes has been discussed many times in the past. I seem to remember a remark on the old news groups that Barnes had received more bids than any other offering, but with the high cost of the project, they were simply not high enough to reach production.

I have the NT notes in Accordance, but they came as part of a larger package, so I can't find the amount I paid for them. I would like to have the OT.

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 5:46 AM

If what I've said is correct (and neither of you have denied that it is), then this is inaccurate.

Think about how bidding is conducted in an auction. Do people bid the maximum they are willing to pay on their very first bid? No, that would be absurd. No one gets as good a deal as they could if they go all out on every item. 

I realize, Keith, that what you're saying is in line with the Logos blog on "A Bidding Strategy for Community Pricing," but I think it's mistaken or bad advise.

P. Keith Larson:
Unless you raise your bid during that last week or four more people bid $10 or more, you will not get the book at the community pricing discount.
 

Exactly, so the person should watch the item closely and move it up if he needs to.

P. Keith Larson:
This means you should always bid the MAXIMUM you are willing to pay on your very first bid.

I strongly disagree that this is the conclusion to draw from your scenario. The smart conclusion, I think, is that you should keep a close eye on the Community Pricing board (they also send out emails). If everyone bids the maximum they are willing to pay then you are guaranteed to pay the highest MARKET price for any item! Is that a good deal? No. 

So no one is doing themselves or the other bidders any favors by bidding the maximum price they are willing to pay. If everyone worked under the same logic then the very point of the Community Pricing board is, well... pointless (assuming Logos publishes all their resources roughly at the highest market value).

P. Keith Larson:
There is no risk to you missing the lowest price, because regardless of how high your bid you are alway guaranteed the lowest price.

This statement is deceiving (though not intentionally) because "lowest price" in your scenario is actually the highest market price since everyone bid the maximum value. When people think of "lowest price" when they are shopping for a bargain they usually think below the market value or, at the very least, below the highest market value. So in any other scenario I think we would correctly say that your statement is false, and it seems to be false in this scenario too.

P. Keith Larson:
However, if you are biding less than you are willing to pay you are risking not getting the resource and your are also not helping the resource get into production as quickly as it might.

That's how auctions work. In fact, that's how all of capitalism works. Investments and transactions are risky. If I go to Best Buy (the electronic store) and see a T.V. for $500 it would be risky for me to go home and check around to see if I could get a better deal. By the time I find out, the sale may be over or the item may be sold out. But to just assume that $500 is the "lowest price" is entirely unreasonable. On the Logos Community Pricing board that risk is reduced because they notify you of when your bid is too low or you can simply check yourself. So it's not a great risk, unless you plan on ignoring an item that you bid on for over a week. The other option you are promoting puts everyone at risk of paying the highest market price for an item, in fact it guarantees it. 

As far as "into production as quickly as it might," I'm willing to wait an extra few months to pay $7 for an item rather than $20. That's over 50% "discount."  I think most people are willing to do the same (as evidenced by Black Friday).

Maybe I'm thinking about the whole thing wrong, if so I would like to know. That's why I asked the question. But it still seems to me that the "Bidding Strategy for Community Pricing" blog (that apparently many people have adopted) is wrong and needs to be changed. Of course, that assumes that your bidding strategy is to pay the lowest possible price (which could never be achieved by bid your maximum!). 

[Edit: In fact maybe I should go post this as a comment under that blog so more people don't get misled]

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 2706
Forum MVP
Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 5:59 AM

John Bowling:

P. Keith Larson:
Unless you raise your bid during that last week or four more people bid $10 or more, you will not get the book at the community pricing discount.
 

Exactly, so the person should watch the item closely and move it up if he needs to.

That is what i do. After a while one can safely predict what a product on community pricing will end up costing. One just has to watch the graph and adjust ones bid.

 

Ted

 

Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ

Posts 18754
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 6:06 AM

Ted Hans:

John Bowling:

P. Keith Larson:
Unless you raise your bid during that last week or four more people bid $10 or more, you will not get the book at the community pricing discount.
 

Exactly, so the person should watch the item closely and move it up if he needs to.

That is what i do. After a while one can safely predict what a product on community pricing will end up costing. One just has to watch the graph and adjust ones bid.

This can work for adjusting one's bid downward, too. Sometimes it helps to get momentum going if you bid a bit higher than you'd ultimately hope to pay (even though you might be willing). More people tend to come on board once something reaches 80% because they fear if they don't hurry up they might miss the deal altogether.

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 6:28 AM

John Bowling:
Maybe I'm thinking about the whole thing wrong, if so I would like to know. That's why I asked the question. But it still seems to me that the "Bidding Strategy for Community Pricing" blog (that apparently many people have adopted) is wrong and needs to be changed. Of course, that assumes that your bidding strategy is to pay the lowest possible price (which could never be achieved by bid your maximum!). 

My understanding of Community Pricing is that it covers the costs to produce a title. period. Logos only makes a profit on sales after Community Pricing produces a title. So, if everyone bids $40 it doesn't necessarily mean that the book will cost $40. Say it takes $1000 dollars to cover production costs of a title. If 100 people bid $40 dollars the final price should be $10 dollars.

Community pricing is more like a joint venture than a regular purchase. The more people involved the less it costs everyone, however, unlike regular joint ventures the dividend is the same (you get an ebook).

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 6:49 AM

Kevin Becker:
My understanding of Community Pricing is that it covers the costs to produce a title. period. Logos only makes a profit on sales after Community Pricing produces a title

I was taking this into account (cf. my earlier post).

Kevin Becker:
So, if everyone bids $40 it doesn't necessarily mean that the book will cost $40. Say it takes $1000 dollars to cover production costs of a title. If 100 people bid $40 dollars the final price should be $10 dollars.

If this is the case it may be better (or more accurate?) if Logos gave us an estimate of the production costs and a graph that represents the number of people willing to participate rather than (or in addition to) the amount of money they are willing to bid (since that would turn out to be virtually irrelevant in such scenarios). Let's say 49 people bid $20 dollars on the current layout and then 50 other people see that there is a lot of support for $20, but aren't willing to pay that. If they knew that their contribution would actually mean they only have to pay $10 then they would probably participate. 

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 7:03 AM

John Bowling:
If this is the case it may be better (or more accurate?) if Logos gave us an estimate of the production costs and a graph that represents the number of people willing to participate rather than (or in addition to) the amount of money they are willing to bid (since that would turn out to be virtually irrelevant in such scenarios). Let's say 49 people bid $20 dollars on the current layout and then 50 other people see that there is a lot of support for $20, but aren't willing to pay that. If they knew that their contribution would actually mean they only have to pay $10 then they would probably participate. 

I think more information (ie. knowing the estimated production cost and have graph showing what-ifs based on the current level of interest) would make community pricing much more effective. It would also allow for users to push for the lowest possible price by stumping for a book. Biblical Studies recently graduated from Community pricing and it was the leak of info from Logos that only 3 more  people at the current bid ($8) were needed pushed it over the finish line. I think a lot more titles would get produced and at better prices if we had more information.

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 7:14 AM

John Bowling:
If this is the case it may be better (or more accurate?) if Logos gave us an estimate of the production costs and a graph that represents the number of people willing to participate rather than (or in addition to) the amount of money they are willing to bid (since that would turn out to be virtually irrelevant in such scenarios). Let's say 49 people bid $20 dollars on the current layout and then 50 other people see that there is a lot of support for $20, but aren't willing to pay that. If they knew that their contribution would actually mean they only have to pay $10 then they would probably participate. 

I'd further point out that I think low bidding is still a good idea in this scenario. Assuming an item costs $100 to produce, what if two people almost immediately bid $50 because they are so crazy about the product? Then the "bidding" will be closed quickly (maybe within a week or two) and, if no one else notices the item, then they pay $50 whereas if they had bid lower and allowed the item to gather more interest and come to more people's attention they could have paid less.

So even from this angle it seems better to initially bid lower rather than higher.

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 10596
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:16 AM

John Bowling:
Think about how bidding is conducted in an auction.

Your logic is flawed on this point. Community Pricing is not an auction. If you bid $100, you have also indicated a willingness to pay $10. If enough bids are made to equal production costs at $10 each, the resource will move to Pre-Pub with your order at $10.

People following your plan has kept Barnes Notes in Community Pricing for years. Not one is willing to bid what they would actually be willing to pay for the product; therefore, we may never see it in Logos.

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 9:23 AM

JackCaviness:
Your logic is flawed on this point. Community Pricing is not an auction.

As long as the same basic principle applies the logic is fine. I think I demonstrated that the same basic principle is at work in both (bidding the maximum is illogical).

JackCaviness:
If you bid $100, you have also indicated a willingness to pay $10. If enough bids are made to equal production costs at $10 each, the resource will move to Pre-Pub with your order at $10.

I already addressed why (to me) this scenario still doesn't justify a higher (or maximum) bid.

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 3669
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 11:50 AM

Over several years, I've seen this discussion come up so many times that I wonder.... If there's someone who feels passionately enough about community pricing to write up the logic, put it out  on the wiki in its own page, perhaps under FAQs. Then we can refer questions to that page rather than rehash the same material.

I'm just sayin'... Smile Wink

Grace & Peace,
Bill


Asus GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
Samsung S9+, 64GB
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 26999
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 12:01 PM

JackCaviness:
Your logic is flawed on this point.

Let's apply a little logic here Big Smile There are at least three possible goals in bidding:

  1. To purchase the product at the lowest possible cost [bid low]
  2. To receive the product as quickly as possible [bid high]
  3. To minimize the risk that production of this products slows a product you prefer [don't bid]

It reads to me as if you are both right - you're simply working towards different end positions.

Okay - have at it. Who is being the most illogical?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 12:25 PM

MJ. Smith:

Let's apply a little logic here Big Smile There are at least three possible goals in bidding:

  1. To purchase the product at the lowest possible cost [bid low]
  2. To receive the product as quickly as possible [bid high]
  3. To minimize the risk that production of this products slows a product you prefer [don't bid]

It reads to me as if you are both right - you're simply working towards different end positions.

Okay - have at it. Who is being the most illogical?

The Logos Community Pricing page states, and I quote, "The Community Pricing program is all about getting more books onto your computer at the cheapest price possible." In light of that, my statements are the most logical ends towards achieving the purpose to which Logos has started the Community Pricing program.

[Further, even if one has goal (2) that may not be achieved by placing a higher bid. I've already described a scenario in which higher bids could drive away potential participants and, thus, delay the production of the item.]

perspectivelyspeaking.wordpress.com

Posts 26999
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 12:45 PM

John Bowling:
The Logos Community Pricing page states, and I quote, "The Community Pricing program is all about getting more books onto your computer at the cheapest price possible." In light of that, my statements are the most logical ends towards achieving the purpose to which Logos has started the Community Pricing program.

Good response bringing in the seller's stated goal of the bidder - which may or may not be the actual goal of the bidder. I'll give you a point (in tennis I'd say 'ad-in' to you) and wait for a response from the other side.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 39
Brandon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 2:18 PM

JackCaviness:
People following your plan has kept Barnes Notes in Community Pricing for years.

 

I beg to differ.  The reason I haven't (and won't) bid on Barnes notes it two-fold:

1. It is available for free in other software.

2. More importantly, it was available as a PBB in L3, and eventually will be in L4.

I don't want to pay for something I can get for free.  Though it won't be 'tagged' as extensively as if Logos had created it, I don't need it to be...I'll just read it as a commentary (none of my print commentaries are tagged.  Come to think of it, I don't think any of my print books are tagged, yet they do the trick Wink ).  I would rather use that money for some other resource that 'tickles my fancy'.

Posts 39
Brandon | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 2:24 PM

BTW, I've lowered all of my community pricing bids.  I admit I did not understand the logic behind it, yet I was told the best thing to do was bid high so I did. 

John you have converted me to the 'dark side'... Devil

p.s. It would be nice if a Logos staff member could weigh in on the debate and clear up some of the murky water. Perhaps we should start a new thread addressing community pricing instead of debating it under 'Compendium of Christian Theology on Community Pricing'.

Posts 26999
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 3:03 PM

John Bowling:
This statement is deceiving (though not intentionally) because "lowest price" in your scenario is actually the highest market price since everyone bid the maximum value. When people think of "lowest price" when they are shopping for a bargain they usually think below the market value or, at the very least, below the highest market value. So in any other scenario I think we would correctly say that your statement is false, and it seems to be false in this scenario too.

As was illustrated by the last time out of community pricing, the "market" rate was approximately twice the rate that those participating in community pricing paid. The potential flaw in your logic is assuming that the "market price" set in the community forum is the same as the "market price" when it is out of community pricing. If you are to compare time vs. money which is what the tradeoff is, do you compare only against the price as it comes out of community pricing?

Going back to my list of three basic options (not the only options) one bid attempts to minimize cash outlay. The other attempts to minimize time outlay. Both are limited resources.

Sorry but the logic match is back to deuce for failing to distinquish what "market value" you refererenced (money vs. time).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 26999
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 3:08 PM

Brandon Blumberg:
I admit I did not understand the logic behind it, yet I was told the best thing to do was bid high so I did. 

Your choice is simple. If cash is more valuable than time, bid low. If time is more valuable than cash, bid high. Admittedly this is an oversimplication. If it is an item that you predict will be very popular, biding low is safe because time is a small percentage of the equation for when it will make it over the top. If you predict that an item will have a limited market, then bidding high is the way to go. Rather than an auction, I would use the image of a horse race - your most rational bid will include predicting the future based on the facts and impressions at hand.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 26999
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 3:15 PM

John Bowling:
Exactly, so the person should watch the item closely and move it up if he needs to.

Sorry, I don't have the time to do this - which is why I drive a friend nuts by bidding exactly what I am willing to pay for an item on eBay.  But I point out to her that she frequently pays more than she intended in the excitement of the auction. I don't. Seems like this was taught me by my father who usually sold bulls at auction and bought them in private transactions.Cool

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Page 2 of 4 (70 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next > | RSS