Bible search vs. Bible speed search

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 5 2010 7:30 PM | Locked

Ok, I see the new option, but what is the difference between the search and speed search?

 

 

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 5 2010 10:08 PM | Locked

Terry Poperszky:

Ok, I see the new option, but what is the difference between the search and speed search?

"Speed Search" searches "as you type", similar to Bible Speed Search in LDLS3. Regular "Search" waits until you press Enter.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 5 2010 11:53 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

 

"Speed Search" searches "as you type", similar to Bible Speed Search in LDLS3. Regular "Search" waits until you press Enter.

It works almost the same as in L3, but not quite. In L4 you must type until a word is recognized as a potential word in the database.

In other words I start typing P-O-W and don't see anything. I continue typing E-R and then the verse list populates.

Not exactly the same search as you type in L3, but close.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 4:21 AM | Locked

Richard DeRuiter:

In other words I start typing P-O-W and don't see anything. I continue typing E-R and then the verse list populates.

Not exactly the same search as you type in L3, but close.

 

Richard,

yes it does....just like L3...P-O-W

Results in a list of : power, powerful, powers

 

BUT....(and this is a big one...)

 

The spinning pizza goes so long that in my mind; the speed search is NOT an improvement; it's actually SLOWER than the regular search..... Tongue Tied

 

EDITED TO ADD: I didn't realize that I'm indexing at the moment...I'll withhold judgment until then...

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 4:26 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Richard DeRuiter:

In other words I start typing P-O-W and don't see anything. I continue typing E-R and then the verse list populates.

Not exactly the same search as you type in L3, but close.

 

 

Richard,

yes it does....just like L3...P-O-W

Results in a list of : power, powerful, powers

 

BUT....(and this is a big one...)

 

The spinning pizza goes so long that in my mind; the speed search is NOT an improvement; it's actually SLOWER than the regular search..... Tongue Tied

 

EDITED TO ADD: I didn't realize that I'm indexing at the moment...I'll withhold judgment until then...

I'm done with Indexing, and I still prefer to use regular search, not speed search. I don't want it spinning its wheels finding stuff that isn't quite what I'm looking for yet. I sometimes make typos while I type and then backspace over them to fix them. Logos tries to keep up with me running a search on each intermediary fragment of the word I'm looking for. I'm happy to wait until I've typed it all in to start the search.

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 4:38 AM | Locked

Rosie,

After indexing; mine worked well,

And BONUS...you don't have to type the whole phrase or word to start the search!

typing: "working until" searches and displays

John: 5:17; "But jesus answered and said to them: "My father is working until now and I am working"

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 5:53 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Rosie,

After indexing; mine worked well,

And BONUS...you don't have to type the whole phrase or word to start the search!

typing: "working until" searches and displays

John: 5:17; "But jesus answered and said to them: "My father is working until now and I am working"

Yes, but if I start typing "working until" with Speed Search on (and "Match all word forms" off), when I've typed "working" Logos has already wasted its time finding all verses that have "working" in them (even if they don't also have until); so that by the time I finish typing "until" it has had to retract some of the work it already did. I find searching is actually faster for me when I keep Speed Search off. If I type working until and press Enter, it finds John 5:17 lickety split.  Having the Search going on in the background while I type also slows down how fast the letters show up in the edit box as I'm typing, so I might not be able to confirm whether I've made a typo or not. I find it irritating. I know other people like it, but I'm glad it's an option we can turn off. I'm not eager to have the search start quickly, I want it to be finished quickly, so I want to avoid the false starts which just waste time.

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Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 5:59 AM | Locked

Rosie Perera:
Yes, but if I start typing "working until" with Speed Search on (and "Match all word forms" off), when I've typed "working" Logos has already wasted its time finding all verses that have "working" in them (even if they don't also have until); so that by the time I finish typing "until" it has had to retract some of the work it already did. I find searching is actually faster for me when I keep Speed Search off. If I type working until and press Enter, it finds John 5:17 lickety split.  Having the Search going on in the background while I type also slows down how fast the letters show up in the edit box as I'm typing, so I might not be able to confirm whether I've made a typo or not. I find it irritating. I know other people like it, but I'm glad it's an option we can turn off. I'm not eager to have the search start quickly, I want it to be finished quickly, so I want to avoid the false starts which just waste time.

I tend to agree Rosie.

I never found the speed search to be very helpful in Libronix and I can't see myself using it in Logos 4. However, to each his/her own I suppose.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 6:04 AM | Locked

Robert Pavich:

Richard,

yes it does....just like L3...P-O-W

Results in a list of : power, powerful, powers

Okay, I just opened L3 and tried it, and it looks like it works almost the same. Except that L3 looks faster here than L4. This is probably the 'spinning pizza' that looks for dictionary entries first and then populates the verse list.

EDIT: I tried Rosie's example and do find that regular search is faster than speed search. So the name for this kind of search should probably be changed to 'Search as you type.' If not, it'll be sneered at by every other Bible software company this side of Ilumina.

 

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 1535
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 6:07 AM | Locked

Kevin Becker:

I tend to agree Rosie.

I never found the speed search to be very helpful in Libronix and I can't see myself using it in Logos 4

 

This is why I chose system administration over programming. Programming reminded me too much of being a pastor, with everyone in the congregation having a different idea on how to do your job and not hesitating to share it with you Big Smile

 

Kevin and Rosie, this was not a slam at either of you... I just remember seeing posts where people thought they would lose their eternal salvation if they were forced to use L4 without the speed search. Personally I tend to agree with you, and often have to scratch my head on some of the "features" people feel they can't do with out.

 

 

 

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 6:43 AM | Locked

I've gotten so used to the basic search, I like it better...go figure..

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 706
Russ Quinn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 7:22 AM | Locked

At the risk of speaking for others, there are a few reasons why Speed Search might have been a preferred tool in L3 for some.

 

  1. The Speed Search tool combined the search field and the search results in one window whereas the Bible Search tool had a separate windows for each. For some this made the Speed Search more intuitive because there were fewer steps to break one's flow of thought in searching. Perhaps those who can easily recall how to spell some of the more obscure names like Mephibosheth and get it right on their first try might not appreciate how the feedback in a single window helps those who remember it as Mephibo something. For some the Speed Search helped folks quickly adjust their attempt to get the word right as the immediate feedback (results if the name was right or no results until the name is right) made it easier to try variations. 
  2. The instant results from a recognized term sometimes opened up new search possibilities that could then easily be explored without breaking one's flow by introducing new dialog boxes. Again this might not be a big deal to some people. Or even an advantage. For others, though, this feels like the difference between reading news on the web and having a stack of newspapers. There is a sense of surfing the results when there is immediate feedback.

 

I think one reason the developers might have initially left Speed Search out of L4 is that both of these benefits can be realized with the regular Search tool. The search line is available in the same view with all searches in L4. This allows one to quickly try new searches based on the results of an attempted search without the distraction of introducing a different dialog box. The need to hit "Enter" is really not as big of a deal (as already noted on this thread).

Also, the immediate feedback on individual words is available in all searches through the drop down list of available word lists. I think the initial requests, at least on my part, for the return of the Speed Search were based on the fact that the words in the drop down list were not populating fast enough for this to be apparent at the time. So speed search in L3 seemed more responsive that waiting on the suggested words in L4.

Ironically, the speed of the drop down list seems to have improved to the point that now Speed Search might feel a bit redundant. Perhaps even the two work against each other in some ways that provide conflicting feedback as well as perceived speed. It doesn't matter how fast the results populate from a Speed Search when the drop down list is struggling to populate with its working indicator spinning.

At that point the drop down list becomes the focus of the window.

Also, the drop down list and the verse list can offer conflicting results that are confusing to the point of distraction.

For instance, typing in "Jo" immediately returns a verse result of Neh 11:7 because it contains the name Joed while the drop down list shows its first three entries of John, Job, and Joshua. The term that I had in mind when I initiated the search was "Joab". I'm not sure why verse list returned Joed but not Joab. Also, to find Joab on the drop down list requires scrolling half way down a lengthy list that has no discernible order (it is obviously not sorted alphabetically and it must not be based on frequency as John has 136 hits, Job has 60 hits, and Joshua has 222 hits). Interestingly a regular search for "Jo" returns the same result of Neh 11:7 but a search for "Jo*" returns what you would expect.

My impression is that final judgment on Speed Search as a tool should be withheld until both the drop down list and verse results are tweaked so they work together in a predictable way.

Posts 804
Richard Lyall | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 1:08 PM | Locked

I'm delighted to see Speed Search make a reappearance as I used it a lot in L3. Thanks guys for putting it back in!

Posts 408
Ken Shawver | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 2:54 PM | Locked

In L3 I used speed search extensively because of the time to do a standard search, so it was a much needed enhancement to L3. As for L4, with the indexing searches are already fast thus making a speed search - IMO - a luxury item. After running around a dozen or so searches side-by-side and coming up with the same result counts, the speed search runs approximately one-third faster most of the time (there were several searches where the regular search ended a bit faster than the speed search, but I'm talking 1-3 hundredth of a second).

One-third faster sounds significant, and it is, but comparing the results of a search being .97 seconds for a regular search and .46 seconds for a speed search does the .37 seconds really have an impact?

Maybe if you are doing large numbers of searches at one sitting, but over all either search will have you moving forward in your studies or sermon prep without significant delay.

My experience with L4 is like driving a perfomance car, after trading in my VW Bug. If you are a fan of the speed search go for it, I will use it too.

In Christ,

Ken

Dell Studio 1555; 15.6 True Life LCD; Intel Core 2 Duo T6600 2.20 GHz, 2M Cache, 800 MHz FSB ; 500GB 5400 HDD; 8GB RAM, Win 10, Chrome 70

http://wiki.logos.com/

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Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 3:13 PM | Locked

I guess that there is an improvement coming in the speed search, right now it's NOT performing correctly in that it treats words like separates i.e. "righteousness OR of OR god" instead of righteousness of god as a phrase....

I thought I'd read that that's getting fixed.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 3:27 PM | Locked

Kenneth Shawver:
My experience with L4 is like driving a perfomance car, after trading in my VW Bug. If you are a fan of the speed search go for it, I will use it too.

I'm not a fan of Speed search and I'm getting slugged with 1.5+ hrs indexing for the pleasure of not using it!

I wouldn't object if Speed search came WITHOUT the separate index.

Dave
===

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Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 5:34 PM | Locked

Dave Hooton:

I wouldn't object if Speed search came WITHOUT the separate index.

These features are independent*; they just happened to both be added in 4.0b Beta 1.

* Bible Speed Search will use the Bible Index if it's present, falling back to the Library Index if not. Non-"Speed Search" will do the same.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 9 2010 6:30 PM | Locked

Bradley Grainger:

These features are independent*; they just happened to both be added in 4.0b Beta 1.

* Bible Speed Search will use the Bible Index if it's present, falling back to the Library Index if not. Non-"Speed Search" will do the same.

When will the Bible Index be optional (I got it with Beta 2)?

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 463
George Allakhverdyan | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 11 2010 2:12 PM | Locked

Rosie Perera:

Robert Pavich:

Rosie,

After indexing; mine worked well,

And BONUS...you don't have to type the whole phrase or word to start the search!

typing: "working until" searches and displays

John: 5:17; "But jesus answered and said to them: "My father is working until now and I am working"

 

Yes, but if I start typing "working until" with Speed Search on (and "Match all word forms" off), when I've typed "working" Logos has already wasted its time finding all verses that have "working" in them (even if they don't also have until); so that by the time I finish typing "until" it has had to retract some of the work it already did. I find searching is actually faster for me when I keep Speed Search off. If I type working until and press Enter, it finds John 5:17 lickety split.  Having the Search going on in the background while I type also slows down how fast the letters show up in the edit box as I'm typing, so I might not be able to confirm whether I've made a typo or not. I find it irritating. I know other people like it, but I'm glad it's an option we can turn off. I'm not eager to have the search start quickly, I want it to be finished quickly, so I want to avoid the false starts which just waste time.

Good catch Rosie! I will file a case on this.

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