Zondervan Pricing

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Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 6 2010 9:35 PM

P. Keith Larson:
It will be the people who have purchased these pre-pubs who will not be feeling so good.

A most erroneous presumption on your part!!!

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 4:04 AM

Otto S. Carroll:

P. Keith Larson:
It will be the people who have purchased these pre-pubs who will not be feeling so good.

A most erroneous presumption on your part!!!

I don't get your point Otto. A product at $2000 plus on Pre-Pub now, later i find that it is going for $1000, you think that it is an "erroneous presumption" to expect that those who have paid the higher price will not be feeling good about it?

Perhaps i am not understanding your point in the spirit you intended it.

Ted

 

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 5:27 AM

Alex Scott:
 Now finally, with a lot of effort from Logos I expect, we have what we've asked for so long and all some of us can do is complain about the cost.

This is how the free market works. The value of any item is relative to the demands of the people in relation to the desires and resources of the producers. Are the Logos resources of Zondervan worth the price Zondervan and Logos are listing? We usually answer such questions by looking at the general market. If they are selling enough for Zondervan and Logos to make a profit then we say "yes". But this is simply descriptive of what people are willing to pay. It isn't normative of what they should pay. 

Thus, in a market driven by supply/demand the perfectly natural thing to do if you're not satisfied with a price is complain. That's one way producers like Logos and Zondervan will know that they are overpricing their items (again, this is descriptive). Another thing to do is not buy their resource.

In light of this I don't see why you find it problematic that persons could want something and then complain about the price once it is offered. Suppose you are lost in the desert and want a glass of water. I offer it to you for 1 million dollars. You complain. Does this mean you must not really want it very badly?

 

 

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Posts 692
Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 5:31 AM

Ted Hans:

Otto S. Carroll:

P. Keith Larson:
It will be the people who have purchased these pre-pubs who will not be feeling so good.

A most erroneous presumption on your part!!!

I don't get your point Otto. A product at $2000 plus on Pre-Pub now, later i find that it is going for $1000, you think that it is an "erroneous presumption" to expect that those who have paid the higher price will not be feeling good about it?

Perhaps i am not understanding your point in the spirit you intended it.

Ted

7 - 8 years ago (or longer - I can't remember when), I pre-ordered the WBC series from Nelson's for around $499  (I can't remember the exact figure). Logos just had that commentary set on sale for $399 as part of its Christmas special. Now, would have like to have paid $399 when I pre-ordered way back when? YES!!!  Do I regret not waiting until 2009 to purchase it for $399? A resounding NO!!! The $100 savings I could have enjoyed by waiting pales in comparison to the benefits of using the WBC in my studies during the many years since I first bought it. I would feel the same way if the WBC can be bought for $200 today - I'm not going to feel bad about what I paid for it when it was first released because it was worth it to me!!!

Of the 87 volume Zondervan collection, there are around 13 volumes (individual titles and in sets) that I would probably use at least 3-4 times a week in my studies. The total price is around $500. It's a judgment call - I am willing to pay $500 for the opportunity to use them when they are released. It is a price I can live with. Now if in a couple of years or so those same books could be bought for $250 (and there's certainly NO guarantee that this would ever happen), that is great for those who are in the market then. But I'm not going to slit my wrist over it. I'm getting the books at a price I'm willing to pay to start using them NOW. If I didn't feel that way about the resources I ordered, I probably wouldn't buy them if they were half price later.

Unless the prices are slashed 50% the day after my credit card is charged, I will be fine!!! Wink

 

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Posts 320
John Bowling | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 5:41 AM

Otto S. Carroll:
7 - 8 years ago (or longer - I can't remember when), I pre-ordered the WBC series from Nelson's for around $499  (I can't remember the exact figure). Logos just had that commentary set on sale for $399 as part of its Christmas special. Now, would have like to have paid $399 when I pre-ordered way back when? YES!!!  Do I regret not waiting until 2009 to purchase it for $399? A resounding NO!!! The $100 savings I could have enjoyed by waiting pales in comparison to the benefits of using the WBC in my studies during the many years since I first bought it. I would feel the same way if the WBC can be bought for $200 today - I'm not going to feel bad about what I paid for it when it was first released because it was worth it to me!!!

Of the 87 volume Zondervan collection, there are around 13 volumes (individual titles and in sets) that I would probably use at least 3-4 times a week in my studies. The total price is around $500. It's a judgment call - I am willing to pay $500 for the opportunity to use them when they are released. It is a price I can live with. Now if in a couple of years or so those same books could be bought for $250 (and there's certainly NO guarantee that this would ever happen), that is great for those who are in the market then. But I'm not going to slit my wrist over it. I'm getting the books at a price I'm willing to pay to start using them NOW. If I didn't feel that way about the resources I ordered, I probably wouldn't buy them if they were half price later.

Unless the prices are slashed 50% the day after my credit card is charged, I will be fine!!!

One also has to factor in that many of us already have some of or all of these resources in hard copy or that we may be able to get them in hard copy for cheaper.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 6:14 AM

Otto S. Carroll:

Unless the prices are slashed 50% the day after my credit card is charged, I will be fine!!! Wink

 

Thanks for responding i see now what you mean. My concern was that, the Zondervan product ships on Pre-Pub only to find that after a short while it is being offered cheaper than expected by Zondervan. This happened with the print edition of the Old Testament background commentary and the Zondervan 5vols. Dictionary. I almost purchased it at Amazon only to receive an email from Zondervan 2 weeks later that i could have 60% off of these titles. Now i would not have been happy but in your scenario, two or three years later, a different ball game.

Thanks for the explanation

Ted. 

 

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 6:52 AM

P. Keith Larson:

Dan DeVilder:
i already canceled.

 

I hope people don't think I started this thread to take away sales from Logos

 

lol, i just noticed i originally spelled "cancelled" and your quote has "canceled."  Looks like both are acceptable spellings. . .Geeked

 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

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Friedrich | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 7:03 AM

Otto S. Carroll:
7 - 8 years ago (or longer - I can't remember when), I pre-ordered the WBC series from Nelson's for around $499  (I can't remember the exact figure). Logos just had that commentary set on sale for $399 as part of its Christmas special. Now, would have like to have paid $399 when I pre-ordered way back when? YES!!!  Do I regret not waiting until 2009 to purchase it for $399? A resounding NO!!!

 

I understand that scenario very well, and it occurs often.  In my own case regarding Z products, I can't afford the 2 K right now, and I do think it is a bit high priced, certainly "pre-pub" is not a "good deal" in relation to the regular or even Logos "sale" price.  That is a departure from what we usually encounter on Logos pre-pubs.  So that is a bit of a let down already.  Add to that the fact that several of us have Z in hardcopy and in Pradis, and the fact that Z's customer service and software pricing decisions in the past have not created a lot of good will and added to that that we might (but as you correctly point out, "might" is not a guarantee) get any Z product at a better price than a pre-pub, we are left with mixed emotions about Z, and we also have less incentive to jump on a Z product.  

And if they DON'T reduce their Logos compatible products at greatly reduced prices later, then we really have't lost that much by waiting.  You may not want to wait because you want to use the stuff now AND you have the money, but several of us, even though we want to use the stuff now WILL wait because we own it on Pradis and we want to spend our limited money on desired products that ARE a great deal as a prepub.  Now, if Z made their prepub Logos stuff very good deals, I might change my tune and get Z in Logos right away.  As it is, it may be years down the road before I do.

Glad Z is on Logos, but not having unlimited resources, if they don't give me a great prepub price, I won't bite.  The only "good" deals are some of their older sets (EBC, NIVAC) that i have in mulitple versions already.  I might miss that I didn't get those at great Logos prices--they may or may not ever be that cheap again, but they are not necessity buys.  Their other products I might perceive as more a necessity (OT Illustrated bacgrounds, NIDOTT) are not "necessity" buys for the fact that there is no price break, and I have similar products by other publishers.  I can wait.

But I can't wait on Tyndale prepub, or NT Wright pre-pub, or AY pre pub . . . 

I like Apples.  Especially Honeycrisp.

Posts 538
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 7:49 AM

Zondervan pricing for years was inexpensive for their resources in Pradis before they switched over to Logos. I paid 69.00 for the Old Testament Theology and the same for the New Testamment Theology. Now they want 199.00 & 129.00 for the same thing. I think Zondervan will heavily discount their titles in the market place just like they did before with Pradis. Baker and Nelson have done the same thing as well.

I am glad Logos has finally been able to offer Zondervan titles in their format, but I suspect that the pre-pub deal is not quite a real "deal".

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 8:08 AM

Otto S. Carroll:
A most erroneous presumption on your part!!!

 

I see from a follow-up posting that you are assuming that Zondervan will not be offering new Software Libraries based on the Logos 4 engine for 2 years. However, the Zondervan web site clearly says that in 2010 “new software titles will become available for use with the Logos Bible Software” and the press release says Zondervan will “license other search engines, including the leader Logos.” This certainly sounds like they will be selling boxed collections as they did in the past and this year!

Unless, Zondervan changes the way that sell their products and no longer allows retailers to discount Zondervan software, we can safely assume the current discounted street price will be roughly the same. Let me lay out for you just how bad things can be for those who have pre-ordered:

Title

Pre-pub

Street Price

Expositor’s Bible Commentary

$129.99

$69.95

New Inter. Dict. Of NT Theo.

$129.99

$64.95

New Inter. Dict. Of OT Theo.

$149.99

$69.95

NIV Appl. Comm. Of OT Proph.

$129.99

$69.95

NIV Appl. Comm. Of NT

$249.99

$139.95

Zond. Encyl. Of the Bible

$279.99

$69.95

Zond. Illustr. Bible Backgr. NT

$159.99

$69.95

Total:

$1229.93

$554.65

 

Let’s say a person wants “How to Read the Bible Book by Book” and “Halley’s Handbook”, they purchase the new Zondervan Basic Library for $16.95, rather than paying 37.98.

Say they also want, “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth”, “Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties”, “Encyclopedia of Bible Characters”, “Encyclopedia of Bible Words”, “New Inter. Bible Dictionary” and “New Inter. Bible Commentary”, rather than paying $151.94 for all these book via Pre-pub, they purchase the New “Understanding the Bible Library” for  $44.95.

Plus they will probably get a number of other good books in this library. It is not uncommon for Logos to not have on the pre-pub page all the books they are working on for a publishing partner.

So let’s see where we are at. Those who wait spend $616.55, those who pre-pub spend $1419.85.

Again, the worst case scenario for those who wait is that Zondervan changes the way that sell their products and no longer allows retailers to discount Zondervan software. What have they lost? Nothing! They can go to the Logos web site and purchase all these resources, download them that very day and not spend a penny more than those who pre-ordered. They can’t lose; but those who pre-order will potentially spend hundreds of dollars more than they have to. Perhaps you will not complain, but I am sure someone will and that is why this whole scenario does not make sense to me.

 

Posts 3705
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 8:13 AM

P. Keith Larson:

Title                                                                 Pre-pub          Street price

Expositor’s Bible Commentary     $129.99       $69.95

<sigh> Still too close to original price I paid for Pradis-ware... I bought the book... unless upgrade is even less, I'll stick to Pradis until it's non-functional (Win8?).

Grace & Peace,
Bill


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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 8:21 AM

P. Keith Larson:

Again, the worst case scenario for those who wait is that Zondervan changes the way that sell their products and no longer allows retailers to discount Zondervan software. What have they lost? Nothing! They can go to the Logos web site and purchase all these resources, download them that very day and not spend a penny more than those who pre-ordered. They can’t lose; but those who pre-order will potentially spend hundreds of dollars more than they have to. Perhaps you will not complain, but I am sure someone will and that is why this whole scenario does not make sense to me.

 

P. Keith, your scenario makes sense to me. And thanks for putting the other side of the argument.

Ted

Edit: When one factors, that some do have all things Pradis like me and i also have most of these titles in my paper library, i hope the worst case scenario does not occur.

 

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Posts 692
Otto S. Carroll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 9:06 AM

P. Keith Larson:

Otto S. Carroll:
A most erroneous presumption on your part!!!

 

I see from a follow-up posting that you are assuming that Zondervan will not be offering new Software Libraries based on the Logos 4 engine for 2 years. However, the Zondervan web site clearly says that in 2010 “new software titles will become available for use with the Logos Bible Software” and the press release says Zondervan will “license other search engines, including the leader Logos.” This certainly sounds like they will be selling boxed collections as they did in the past and this year!

Unless, Zondervan changes the way that sell their products and no longer allows retailers to discount Zondervan software, we can safely assume the current discounted street price will be roughly the same. Let me lay out for you just how bad things can be for those who have pre-ordered:

 

Title

Pre-pub

Street Price

Expositor’s Bible Commentary

$129.99

$69.95

New Inter. Dict. Of NT Theo.

$129.99

$64.95

New Inter. Dict. Of OT Theo.

$149.99

$69.95

NIV Appl. Comm. Of OT Proph.

$129.99

$69.95

NIV Appl. Comm. Of NT

$249.99

$139.95

Zond. Encyl. Of the Bible

$279.99

$69.95

Zond. Illustr. Bible Backgr. NT

$159.99

$69.95

Total:

$1229.93

$554.65

 

Let’s say a person wants “How to Read the Bible Book by Book” and “Halley’s Handbook”, they purchase the new Zondervan Basic Library for $16.95, rather than paying 37.98.

Say they also want, “How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth”, “Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties”, “Encyclopedia of Bible Characters”, “Encyclopedia of Bible Words”, “New Inter. Bible Dictionary” and “New Inter. Bible Commentary”, rather than paying $151.94 for all these book via Pre-pub, they purchase the New “Understanding the Bible Library” for  $44.95.

Plus they will probably get a number of other good books in this library. It is not uncommon for Logos to not have on the pre-pub page all the books they are working on for a publishing partner.

So let’s see where we are at. Those who wait spend $616.55, those who pre-pub spend $1419.85.

Again, the worst case scenario for those who wait is that Zondervan changes the way that sell their products and no longer allows retailers to discount Zondervan software. What have they lost? Nothing! They can go to the Logos web site and purchase all these resources, download them that very day and not spend a penny more than those who pre-ordered. They can’t lose; but those who pre-order will potentially spend hundreds of dollars more than they have to. Perhaps you will not complain, but I am sure someone will and that is why this whole scenario does not make sense to me.

Thank you very much, Kieth for further clarification of your position. When I became active in this thread, I did not understand Zondervan history of allowing their software to be sold by retailers at "street prices." I was thinking of prices falling over a period of time. If I'm understanding you correctly, a retailer could be selling Logos Zondervan at street prices on the very day that it is released. If that's the case, you are right - I would definitely be upset with myself!!! Big Smile

12 or 13 years ago, I bought my first Logos package (I think it was 2.0 "Level 2") at a Christian Bookstore for the retail price of $500. I was pretty upset at myself two days later when I discovered that I could have bought the same package for $150 less at Rejoice Christian Software!!!

Thanks again for taking the time to explain your position. Under the scenario as I understand it now, it is wise to wait and see!!!

______

PS: After reading the post below, I want to add that if those street prices aren't for Logos 4 then they are not worth it to me - I would pay retail. But I will definitely wait and see what happens with a couple of big ticket items I "had" on prepub....

 

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Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 9:33 AM

Now, P. Keith Larson, I have already stated that there is really only one item that I will buy at this current price and that I will pass on the rest because they cost too much!

But the one resource that I will buy as soon as I can, has come up several times, and it is the Expositor's Bible Commentary.

I had this in paper and gave it away, I used it between 3-7 times a week when I had it and it was a real blessing to me.

You list current street price at 69.95 and retail at 129.95.  This is not based on facts!  Where can I go buy a Logos 4 based Expositor's Bible Commentary for 69,95???  It is true I can buy a much cheaper electronix version for 69.95, but I would gladly pay more than that to have a product that I know will be useful to me 3 or more times a week, in Logos, which I believe is the best system for  bible study.  If I am wrong let me know where I can pick this resource up for Logos 4 for only 69.95! I will do it, if not then we are comparing apples and some other fruit.

In this one case I know how useful the resource is,  I also look around and see what other Bible Commentary Set is there, that will cover the whole bible for 130.00.  If you can find another one out there in Logos, how does it stake up against this one is it as conservative, and as solid as this one, is it as indepth, is it the about the same size as EBC???

In my mind there is one other commentary set that stakes up well against this one, and by that I mean it is about as indepth, conservative and about the same length, and that set  is the Tyndale Commentary.  Now remember I have used both of these sets in paper additions and I know how I feel about both of them.  So how much is the Tyndale set? 

The Tyndale set will be out in about a week here at Logos for either 169.00 or 179.00, I forget which it is because I already got it coming from another place for 150,00 and I consider that a good deal on a set that I will use often.

So now if I compare that 150.00  to the price of the Zondervan EBC at 130,00 which is the lowest price that I can count on getting a Logos based copy of EBC, I come to the conclusion that the EBC is a good deal for me at 130.00 even if it comes down in price later! 

 Actually I doubt if it will come down to 50% off, they seldom did that with their other electronix books until after they decided to discontinue them, but even if they did come down 50% off in 2-3 three months, I would still be happy knowing I had used this resource for those 2-3 months!   And the other side of the story is that Zondervan may never come down to 50% off and then I will feel even better because these books are worth knowing I have them for only 130.00 in the Logos system.

So is the current asking a price of 130.00 a good deal to me compared to 150.00 for the Tyndale set, the answer to me is that both are great buys at their asking price, both are very basic simple commentaries that I will use often before looking into more indepth commentaries, they are also both commentaries that I will point alot of my fellow believers to, as being solid basic commentaries!  And that is why my Tyndale is on the way and if the EBC came out today, I would buy it today!

Now if you know of another set of commentaries that will fill the same niche as the EBC in the Logos software, for less than 130.00 dollars let me know!  It must be about the same size as this set, conservative, easy to understand, and it must cover both the Old and New Testament.

If any of you have any good ideas let me know.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 9:36 AM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

But the one resource that I will buy as soon as I can, has come up several times, and it is the Expositor's Bible Commentary.

I had this in paper and gave it away, I used it between 3-7 times a week when I had it and it was a real blessing to me.

 

Jim, I just found this in pre-pub and signed up for it as well. It has been one of my favorite commentaries over the years. 

 

 

 

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 10:17 AM

JimVanSchoonhoven:
You list current street price at 69.95 and retail at 129.95.  This is not based on facts!  Where can I go buy a Logos 4 based Expositor's Bible Commentary for 69,95???  It is true I can buy a much cheaper electronix version for 69.95, but I would gladly pay more than that to have a product that I know will be useful to me 3 or more times a week, in Logos, which I believe is the best system for  bible study.  If I am wrong let me know where I can pick this resource up for Logos 4 for only 69.95! I will do it, if not then we are comparing apples and some other fruit.

 

You are correct that this is the street price of the current Pradis version, but my guess that the street price of the Logos version will be very close to this. The ECB is on my must buy list as well. But tell me Jim, want have you gained by placing a pre-order at $129? The day it comes out I can purchase it and download it for the very same price, what I gain by waiting just a little bit is potentally saving a lot of cash. Zondervan may totally change their policies with retailers and we will all have to pay full price, but isn't the purdent thing to do is wait and see? If Zondervan allowed Logos to pre-pub these works at the normal pre-pub discounts it might not be worth the risk to see what will happen, but as it is now I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by waiting.

Posts 1130
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 10:28 AM

Otto S. Carroll:
I did not understand Zondervan history

 

Another piece of evidence that we will see heavy discounting is the street price of Zondervan's Accordance software libraries. Although the Pradis libraries have been heavily discounted for years, some could make the argument that low prices I was quoting were because Pradis is a discontinued product, but the heavy discounting of the Accordance libraries contradicts this.

Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 10:47 AM

There may be a couple of reasons for the high prices of the Z products.  First of all, many of us who have been here for a long time have been pressuring Z to have their resources in Logos format, giving the impression at least that there is a large demand for the products.  If on the other hand, it turns out that there is NOT that demand, don't be surprised if Z pull out of the agreement, in which case you may get a really good deal - it will cost you $0.00 - for nothing.  But then that won't be a problem for many because it is apparent that the money is far more important than the resources to them.  I just hope the resources do become available before that happens if it does.  The upside for Z in that case is that they will no longer have to listen to us pestering them because the matter will have been settled once and for all.

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

Posts 5615
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 10:56 AM

Alex Scott:
If on the other hand, it turns out that there is NOT that demand, don't be surprised if Z pull out of the agreement, in which case you may get a really good deal - it will cost you $0.00 - for nothing.  But then that won't be a problem for many because it is apparent that the money is far more important than the resources to them.

This seems highly unlikely.  You don't shut down your main distribution channel because customers think your price is too high.

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Posts 653
Alex Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 7 2010 11:01 AM

Yeah - tell that to the people who would love to get their hands on The Interpretation Commentaries.

Longtime Logos user (more than $30,000 in purchases) - now a second class user because I won't pay them more every month or year.

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