I Think We Are at THAT Point

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This post has 52 Replies | 6 Followers

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Nov 3 2014 7:44 AM

In my opinion, having used Logos since its third iteration, the software is now at the point where the average user will never use all the features in the software. Some specialty users will, and a few even might find it limiting in terms of total features, but for the most of us, we'll scratch the surface on everything and end up using some smaller percentage of the software for the duration.

As such, I'd like to see more focus from Faithlife put on making the features that are there work better, more efficiently, etc., make parts of the software that were designed based on majority-use data customizable, address more of the items that have been languishing in User Voice, and I'd especially like to see more focus put on training materials, such as videos with worked examples, etc.

The absolute biggest drawback to Logos software at the introduction of a new version is the dearth of training materials. L6 has matured enough that training should get as much attention as marketing does. When L4 came out, a good number of higher-end users quickly got videos up in the wiki and on their own websites which were most valuable for those learning the software. When L5 came out, not so much (probably mainly on the assumption that since L5 was basically L4 with some added features, they weren't necessary).

With L6, we have a rather long list of new features, and very little material from Logos with which to work. I assume this body of material will grow a bit over the next few months. But I would love to see it grow faster and more than it has in the past, and not leave the training up to MP or kind volunteer lay-users.

While L6 stops short of requiring the use of a programming language like some intensive software packages do, the sheer number of features which focus on ancient languages for their use, coupled with a massive body of resources to use within the software beg for additional, Faithlife-created, user-interactive training much like we see with some of the industry-specialized software out there.

Satisfied customers who can access more features in the software, can find quick training when they can't remember how, and are comfortable enough with the software and support to recommend it to others may be a better marketing tool than simply piling on new features at this point.

FWIW.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 1069
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:20 AM

I would love to see more training resources as well, but I don't feels as though they've left us in the lurch.

The summary post of features with details on each one is nice: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/92701/643169.aspx#643169

We have QuickStart for Logos Bible Software v. 6 built right into the Logos platform.

Many of the resources that trained us on L4 and L5 are still valid for L6. Each iteration has been an extension of the prior, so you can still learn a lot about L6 if you're new to the software and watch an L4 training video.

Don't get me wrong--I agree with you about the need for refinement. There is a lot of raw material there, and I hope the resources go into refining it so that every new feature becomes world class on its own.

Posts 10779
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:34 AM

Doc, you nailed it.   Very similar to Microsoft's Excel, etc. Maybe Logos7 should put a ribbon at the top or something.  Re-brand it FaithLife7.

My suggestion (and frankly I think a major money maker for Logos) is to get Faithlife working.  I cry in my beer (that I don't drink of course), that Logos just can't see 'easy'.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 3116
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:38 AM

I do agree that one department of Logos that leaves a lot to be desired is the lack of training.  I have never really seen a software with as little training as Logos.  At least free training anyway.  I shouldn't have to buy a manual it should come with the program.

Ok, gripe over.  Staying positive!

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:50 AM

So, this doesn't count? https://www.logos.com/training Videos are available there for the following (from a copy/paste; not sure if the links will work here, they do on the web page):

New in Logos Bible Software 6!

Installation & Setup
New Search Features
New Tools & Datasets

(I found it in less than a minute by looking at the FAQ > Basic Training, and clicking "online")

Most (all?) base packages also include "quick-start" videos from Morris Proctor.

Also, there are a ton of videos for L5 in the wiki. They're excellent, and most of what's there that's not new to L6 still applies.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 2200
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:50 AM

Buying Logos is a little like buying a jet liner, getting in and fiddling  with a few knobs and buttons and the engines suddenly roar to life!  You think, "Wow!  I can run this thing!" You drive it up and down the runway a few times (rarely crashing) and get it up to 100 MPH.  Wheeeee!  Then you want to fly to Canberra and discover you may need to learn a few things first.  

Logos does a lot out of the box for the raw beginner.  And there is a lot of help for those folks. But it does a lot more that beginner-ish stuff too.  We jealously watch the pros's do incredible aerobatics with just a few Hebrew grammar tricks, a lexicon and some label searches using fancy "{[(*)]}'s" and stuff., and we want to know how to do it too.  Some of us buy Camp Logos, and some of us just stick our nose down deep in the computer's innards and figure it out the hard way.

I think that going from 0-60 isn't so hard.  Lots of help is available.  Going from 60-140 is kind of a bleak landscape of help.  Then from 140-200 there is some very good, though spotty help--it;s kind of specialized.  From 200 and up...you are mostly on your own, but let me warn you this bird can go 700 MPH.  

I've had it up to 35 already.   

Ever try too learn Photoshop?  There are a gazillion youtube videos and books and courses.  But if you want to really use its potential you have to just get in there and use it a lot. If you don't have that level of interest, there is always Microsoft paint, or a pencil and paper.

I suggest with Logos that you overbuy just a little.  Then you won't be frustrated by what you can't do.  Then when you want more, buy more.  There is no silver bullet that just downloads all that ability into your head in a day or week or month or year.

    

Posts 2766
Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 8:53 AM

I actually would like to see an included basic/feature manual in pdf (or even doc(x)) format without the need to obtain/purchase separately. Something of this sort is very good for just reference purposes. The wiki is good for online, however, it is not the same and not in a format that can be opened like a pdf/doc file.

As far as advanced/intermediate and other training, I think John, Morris, and others do a great job in this. Faithlife could also offer pre-release training in the future, several months before an official release in order to get those interested up to speed before the official release. I'm sure this is probably offered unadvertised to a few, but it would be beneficial to offer this across the board (with cost or no cost).

OT: BTW: Congratulations on your 1000 post. I noticed that, and it may very well be 1001 by now. Smile

Posts 166
Anthony | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 9:59 AM

I think it's important to note that users will be limited in some cases no matter how much Logos teaches them how to use their software. For example in exploring the original languages and using all the tools to do so, I am familiar with doing; asking the right questions and drawing the right conclusions is something I'm still learning. 

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SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:04 AM

Base packages should include training videos and other materials. Period.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:07 AM

SineNomine:
Base packages should include training videos and other materials. Period.

They do include training materials. Other materials are accessible (to everyone) on-line.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 3116
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:10 AM

Rich DeRuiter:

SineNomine:
Base packages should include training videos and other materials. Period.

They do include training materials. Other materials are accessible (to everyone) on-line.

I'm not so much worried about training such as videos, though I do enjoy those.  I would just like to see a manual.

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Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:15 AM

Anthony:

For example in exploring the original languages and using all the tools to do so, I am familiar with doing; asking the right questions and drawing the right conclusions is something I'm still learning. 

That is where the Holy Spirit and seminary (or other focused schools) come in. Logos will not infuse your mind with what you need to learn, however, it will help you in learning what needs to be infused in you. Smile

My thoughts

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:20 AM

David Taylor Jr:
 I would just like to see a manual.

Bob has said in the past they they are not likely to ever produce a written manual. The reason, as I remember it, is too few people read manuals anymore to justify the cost to produce it.

(I wouldn't know how to begin to corroborate nor refute that assumption.)

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

Posts 3116
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:22 AM

Rich DeRuiter:

David Taylor Jr:
 I would just like to see a manual.

Bob has said in the past they they are not likely to ever produce a written manual. The reason, as I remember it, is too few people read manuals anymore to justify the cost to produce it.

(I wouldn't know how to begin to corroborate nor refute that assumption.)

Yeah I know Bob's position.  And I actually agree with him, I am the exception to the rule.  I used to do tech support for Apple, I can guarantee you 90% of people do not read the manuals! lol  I'm just a tech junkie and like to know how everything works.

I am to software what my dad is to cars.

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David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 10:36 AM

I think we are at THAT point where it is time to stop investing in new search functions and start back-tracking...i.e. go back and get the LINKS!!! in older resources that should work but don't (or don't exist but should) to finally work. This has been a concern since L4 came out, and I won't say no progress has been made (some has), but many things are still sorely lacking.

Case in point: NET Bible has hundreds, maybe thousands, of links that don't do what they should. At this point in the game, that is a crime. It is probably the primary textual resource for a quick down-and-dirty summary of what's up regarding textual concerns. Hyperlinks are one of Logos's main reasons for existing--when they don't work, the program is broken.

I'd like to see it get fixed.

Posts 2902
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 11:19 AM

Rich DeRuiter:
So, this doesn't count?

Richard, I don't consider one-minute video clips 'training'.

These are good introductory videos, and for those who use Logos quite a bit, can get them started so they can figure out the details as they go. But it's not training.

Don't misunderstand my reply as not appreciating these little videos. I do. But while they are necessary accoutrements, they are not sufficient ones.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 10779
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 11:20 AM

Regarding the manual idea, it's funny how so many of my  $2 iOS apps have small manuals.  And for good reason.  A manual is the only way to see the true power of the app.   Now I also remember Milford who tried valiently to appear kind and express his frustration due to 'no manual' for the Logos apps.

I do wonder (and don't know) if using a manual is a gender distinction.  I can't remember me or most of my friends buying anything without scanning the manual.  Just the other day, I got a new Rowenta.   Had to read the manual!!    Even when we paint our house, we get out the manual on the power paint sprayer.   Have to.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 2902
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 11:20 AM

Erwin Stull, Sr.:
OT: BTW: Congratulations on your 1000 post.

Thank you, Erwin!

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2279
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 11:25 AM

Denise:
I do wonder (and don't know) if using a manual is a gender distinction.  I can't remember me or most of my friends buying anything without scanning the manual.  Just the other day, I got a new Rowenta.   Had to read the manual!!    Even when we paint our house, we get out the manual on the power paint sprayer.   Have to.

I can't say whether it is a gender thing, but I prefer to press stuff randomly until it just works. If (or when) that doesn't work, I get at it with my screwdriver set. Finally, I resort to my faithful claw hammer.

Job done.

Big Smile

Posts 2022
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 3 2014 11:29 AM

Rich DeRuiter:

David Taylor Jr:
 I would just like to see a manual.

Bob has said in the past they they are not likely to ever produce a written manual. The reason, as I remember it, is too few people read manuals anymore to justify the cost to produce it.

(I wouldn't know how to begin to corroborate nor refute that assumption.)

Even Morris Proctor produces Logos print manuals...and sells them.  I would assume there is a market for them.  And I would also assume that this is the reason why you see no free manual in Logos.  Having said that, I wish an on line manual would be included as part of the base price.  If this was done, I would think it is possible that the price for the manual could be greatly reduced as the amount of people receiving base packages and thus  the manual, would be greater

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