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Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:34 PM

I must confess, that I am more concerned by the response to this post than I was by the fact that a newbie mentioned by name where to pick up a Logos product at a cheaper price.

If any one has hurt Logos in this thread it was not Christopher.

I am so thankful for Logos and as much as it is possible to love a company,  I love the company, and I really do love the salesman that I deal with directly.  But I am also thankful for other companies that are attempting to make sure that the whole body of Christ has access to bible study programs and materials.

I am so thankful that Logos and IVP have an agreement that allows the Tyndale Commentaries to be put in the Logos program.  I am also thankful that that agreement allows IVP to have other retailers sale chis wonderful product that promotes Logos and IVP.

Not only were Christopher's comments not meant to hurt Logos in any way, they were meant to help those in the body of Christ that might not be able to afford this source at the Logos price. Some can not afford the Logos price, but they could at a lower price at another Christian site that is actually supporting Logos.  And for others a cheaper price on this resource helps them to get ther next resource that much faster. Logos knows this and that is why they run sales too! Of course the site Christopher mentioned also support other Christian companies, which I am thankful for.

To make a big deal out of such comments has actually made me question Logos, do they really feel that Christopher's comments were out of line?  Christopher posted no link.  Is Logos really at the point where they don't want their users to mention other places that sell their products?  Are they afraid we might buy other products from other Christian companies?

My dealings with Logos have not been of such nature, I freely talk with my sales person not only about other companies that carry Logos but other programs.  I really love such an attitude, and I buy more from Logos because of it!

My salesman has even gone as far as telling me I should by certain resources directly from their partners, to help support their partners so that their partners can afford to keep developing new products!

As for us being polite since we are in the Logos house, I didn't think Christopher was being anything but polite, he was pointing people to a Logos product at a price that might encourage more people to buy more Logos materials.  I also did not notice any reply from Logos telling him he was out of line.

I have seen this kind of post attacked before and the attacks have always left a bad taste in my mouth, not only then but also now!  Logos is getting a lot of good from these forums and allowing comments like Christopher"s to be posted will not hurt them, but rather help them!

However, I can also assure you that attacking posts like his will do harm to Logos, and  already has.

I love Logos, and I love them because they are serving the body of Christ, allowing a post like Christopher's is one of the ways they are serving the needs of the whole body, even those that would not do the same for them (grace).  If a post is that offensive to Logos, they are big enough to delete or talk to the person, they do not need forum members taking action for them unless they have asked them too!

Logos is a strong Christian centered company, they are being used by God to serve the body of Christ, but if they see Christopher's comments as trials and tribulation (a problem), then their eyes are on the wrong thing and the company will not last long.  I for one hope they did not see a problem with his comment that Tyndale Commentaries could be bought a such and such a store for less.

Let's not forget we study the scriptures to have a stronger relationship with Christ, and also with the hope that He will then live His life in us and show others His grace through us!

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:36 PM

Why don't you guys do the decent thing and bury this horse? You have beaten it so badly that pieces are start ing to fly off. Big Smile

 

 

Posts 42
Chris Funkhouser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:37 PM

I have stayed out of this conversation, while my "9th" post on this forum done in an innocent way early one morning has blown into a firestorm of disagreement. I honestly understand both sides of the argument. I am pro Logos using the software regularly and spending much of my Bible Study budget with them in the last several years of my life. I am also pro paying the best price. While I now see that Logos has no "official policy", as a new user of the forums I would find it quite prudent for Logos to have a list of "Suggestions for Use of Forums" pinned at the top of the main forum page. Most other forums I have perused and use have such a post. It does not have to be official rules, but expected etiquette.  I too echo Jeremiah who asked about other forums where we could discuss competitors and best prices, so as to not step on Logos toes.

Beyond such helpful information; I believe it best that this banter and discussion end since neither side seems to be winning any converts, so to speak.

 

Prayerfully,

Chris the Newbie

Posts 2718
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:41 PM

Until the host of this forum posts of list of official rules it is the wild west and I any may post anything they like and the only thing stopping them is their own conscience and sense of decorum.

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:46 PM

Well Terry, the reason I made a post was because it matters to me, how Logos and this forum looks to new people searching information on bible study materials.  I wanted to send a message to them that not everyone stands on the same side of this issue!

Too many have seen these attacks on newbies too often and so they are speaking out now!

If the attacks stop coming there would be no one posting another point of view.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:52 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

Well Terry, the reason I made a post was because it matters to me, how Logos and this forum looks to new people searching information on bible study materials.  I wanted to send a message to them that not everyone stands on the same side of this issue!

Too many have seen these attacks on newbies too often and so they are speaking out now!

If the attacks stop coming there would be no one posting another point of view.

In Christ,

Jim

 

And Jim, you have every right to do so, as does Robert or Matthew. My post was simply meant as a gentle reminder that there are some topics we will never agree on and carries as my authority, my relationship to everyone here in Christ. If you feel that this subject needs to continue to be discussed, please feel free.

 

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:53 PM

MarkSwaim:
The competition issue really baffles me.
MarkSwaim:
While we ought to be polite, we should reflect on what it means to be polite. 


There are different levels of politeness. It isn't especially polite to go to a dinner invitation and talk sports the whole time if your host is not a sports fan (i.e. Sarah Palin, 1000 club, theological debate.) It is downright rude to sit there and say you like the other guy's meatloaf recipe better than the host's (while sitting at the host's table.) It is also rude to say your gas money is better spent at a restaurant closer to home.

Logos capital investments cost real money! To allow another company advertising space is self-defeating. Other corporations set geographical boundaries ("territories") to prevent sales of their own product from hurting additional sales of their own product.

Let's take the church analogy a couple steps farther. Since Libronix based software is common to Galaxie, Nelson & Logos like the Bible is common to the Methodist, Lutheran and Presbyterian churches, there is no competetion between them, right? WRONG.

If none of you see anything morally wrong with what you are doing...... See how long you go without rules being imposed. After all, without the Law there would be no sin. (Bad theology again?)

 

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Posts 27
Brandon Vaughn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:55 PM

A big problem, as I see it, is what is meant by "competitor."  Therein is some confusion.

Does that mean anything that doesn't have the Logos stamp on it?  Even if said product is in direct support of Logos?

To me, competitor means something that is an alternative product to Logos.  For that, I can understand the policy.

But for things which support Logos (like new tutorials), that is not a competitor in my books but a supporter.  And unfortunately, some who have taken up the call to police this policy on here seem to get the two mixed up at times.

Blessings,
Brandon

Posts 87
Ray D | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:55 PM

Quite honestly, the response to Christopher's initial post really troubles me as well. There was no malicious attempt to siphon off Logos customer to the competition here. Simply someone wanting to bless others. If this is indeed a significant issue to Logos, it is their problem to solve. I would encourage them to post forum policy. That seems easy enough. I would also respectfully encourage others to then leave the policing of said policy to Logos. At most, gingerly point the "perpetrators" to said policy.

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 1:56 PM

Terry Poperszky:
You have beaten it so badly that pieces are start ing to fly off. Big Smile

I'm swatting the flies, Terry. Tongue Tied

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Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:12 PM

I CAN completely understand NOT posting things about buying from other competeing programs.  That makes sense... 

However, complaining about users posting about PARTNER companies and even resellers is... over the top..

Logos the company and the program is awesome... If I find a cheaper resource from either a partner company or reseller I will have not problem with my conscience posting it in these forums... 

Logos will still be making money off of it, and if they didn't want them selling their products (or people talking about it) they wouldn't allow them to...

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:19 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:
To make a big deal out of such comments has actually made me question Logos, do they really feel that Christopher's comments were out of line? 

Jim,

Please don't confuse anything I say with Logos (non-existent) policy, or official opinions. I am not an employee of Logos (they have the blue cross/magnifying glass logo under their names.) I am not a shareholder of Logos (only Rosie makes such a claim in her bio  Smile) I am just freely (unwisely?) speaking my opinions like the rest of you.

Allow me some hyperbole; If my child sticks a knife in the toaster I shout to stop him. I know Christopher is not a child and he won't get killed posting diversionary information. But I love the channel of blessings the Logos company has been for me. I am senstive to the real (yes, unintentional but real) damage that is done by such posts. You may think Logos too big to be affected by little things. But that proverbial dead horse's carcass will be removed by all the little flies doing a little damage each.

Just swatting flies, Terry. Wink

 

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Posts 1945
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:20 PM

Matthew C Jones:
See how long you go without rules being imposed

I think rules should be imposed.  But who imposes them?  I suggest Logos is the one to impose them, and Logos has already stated (Bob P) that at the moment, he does not favor rules.  He will probably change his mind.  But that is the way it goes for now.  Perhaps you should write the rules.  Some would think that to be a wonderful idea but I suspect that others might protest and say a forum user has no authority to write the rules.

Again, the whole competition thing baffles me.  Dan P is the Marketing director so I can understand his views.  But he does not lay down the forum policy as his own post acknowledged.  Logos sells the Theological Journals: http://www.logos.com/products/details/3582

How can that be?  This is not their product!  It belongs to Galaxie.  They produced it and they should get the sale.  Ah, but I am not really upset.  Somehow I think that there is no competition.  There is mutual partnership.  Someone once mentioned that they would purchase the item from Logos and not Galaxie in order to support Logos.  You mentioned morality.  What would be the moral thing to do? 

If Logos sells competitor's products, I have a hard time believing that they would be upset if forum members pointed people to products that support Logos but are on other company websites.

By the way, while there is only one forum that I am aware of for Logos, I suspect that more will crop up at some point if there is no freedom to discuss all things Logos on this forum.

And one more aside...does anyone wonder how PBB resources play into this discussion? I have started to wonder if PBB ever will be allowed in L4.  Thus far I am not aware of L4 having the ability to create PBB.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:31 PM

MarkSwaim:
And one more aside...does anyone wonder how PBB resources play into this discussion? I have started to wonder if PBB ever will be allowed in L4.  Thus far I am not aware of L4 having the ability to create PBB.

It is not there yet, but it is scheduled with features more in keeping with the Logos produced resources. Many of the PBB's I use are not items that fit into Logos' marketing niche - Logos would not find them profitable to publish. There are a handful of user generated products - some timelines, for example - that I am surprised are not native to Logos. Somehow, I don't think there is any money in them either.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:33 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
However, complaining about users posting about PARTNER companies and even resellers is... over the top..

Wonder WHY Logos 4 is not available in retail outlets like Version 3 was? The only new titles available are third party published titles. When the CDs at mail order outlets are gone, they're gone. There is a lot beyond your understanding going on in the marketing world.

If a new car dealer had a bulletin board in the show room, it would not feature third parties' used car ads, especially if they are of the same make. Once a third party has possession of a Logos title, there is no more profit to be made for Logos. They would much rather you buy a new title from Logos directly (constitutes additional profit) rather than buy a copy that has exhausted it's profit potential. I don't know why this is difficult to grasp. It does not keep you from buying elsewhere. It just doesn't require Logos to facilitate the loss of additional sales.

additional word picture: Fuller Brush Company drops off 12 door-to-door salesmen on one block. Are they now "partners" or "competitors"?  Remember, they are all selling the same product.

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Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:48 PM

If Logos wants to officially reply and state that they don't want ANY information about their partners being posted on their forum, then you have a leg to stand on. 

Otherwise, why not let them police their own forums?  This would sure help keep tension to a minimum... 

Posts 1646
SteveF | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:52 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Wonder WHY Logos 4 is not available in retail outlets like Version 3 was?

Yes, Bob said it was because the new L4 is a constantly evolving downloadable program. He did not want to have "stale" older copies on the shelves of the store which would demand massive downloads to upgrade to current standards. That was not a problem with Series X or Libronix 3.

Steve

 

Regards, SteveF

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:52 PM

Jeremiah Daniel Morris:
If Logos wants to officially reply and state that they don't want ANY information about their partners being posted on their forum, then you have a leg to stand on. 

That's funny Jeremiah. I only have one leg, fer real. 

Back to my illustration: ABC Vacuum cleaner company drops off 12 door-to-door salesmen on one block. Are they now "partners" or "competitors"?  Remember, they are all selling the same product.

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Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:53 PM

Deleted because the original poster is right....why am i still arguing about this?

 

 

 

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 13 2010 2:58 PM

SteveF:
Bob said it was because the new L4 is a constantly evolving downloadable program.

That is true. But it doesn't have anything to do with why all the resources are not made available in Logos 4 format on CD through retail outlets. The whole model of downloadable ONLY is designed to cut out the unreliable third party outlets. BobP gave several reasons why using retail outlets had many problems. It is the classic "hired hand shepherd" versus the real shepherd. Nobody cares about Logos as much as Logos does.

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