Concern about future upgrades

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Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 4:25 AM

Wild Eagle:

Dan, everything in technology progressing toward cloud. Those programs which don't go to that direction will be left behind

Don't agree.

There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests.

Further, when I hear that sort of "newspeak" which tries makes a person think if they disagree that they are engaging in "thoughtcrime", I tend to think of situations like the FBI/CIA complaining that Apple is locking them out of being able to snoop on people's mobile devices at will because Apple puts encryption on the device to protect the user's privacy. 

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 2038
Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 4:30 AM

I fully agree with Patrick S.! The ones that are left behind the development are individuals who don't pay any attention to CPU benchmarks when they buy hardware:

Patrick S.:
Don't agree.

There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests:

Wild Eagle:
Dan, everything in technology progressing toward cloud. Those programs which don't go to that direction will be left behind

Aply!
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Posts 1415
Wild Eagle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 7:03 AM

Patrick S.:

Don't agree.

There may be people/companies who want you to believe that unless everything goes 'up to the cloud' (up in smoke?) you will be a second class technology citizen, but they have a reason wanting you to believe that — because they have a vested interested in locking you into their platform. And what better way to lock you in then making you totally dependent on their online platform which they totally control.

Sure there can be benefits in being able to use the 'cloud' (and just what does the 'cloud' mean anyway separate from its marketing term) to transfer/share/replicate data — but as to saying that an application will not function at all without a 'cloud' connection is just (marketing) hype driven by commercial / governmental interests.

Further, when I hear that sort of "newspeak" which tries makes a person think if they disagree that they are engaging in "thoughtcrime", I tend to think of situations like the FBI/CIA complaining that Apple is locking them out of being able to snoop on people's mobile devices at will because Apple puts encryption on the device to protect the user's privacy. 

Patrick, I understand your concern. You don't want to be dependable on a company or "corporation". But from my perspective, we get phones, tablets, home computers, office computers and etc... Without cloud, I can't imagine a possible way to move forward with some large data libraries. I am for physical backups, but at the same time, I want to have everything in cloud as well. I can't prefer one over the other one. Both have advantages and disadvantages 

PS: concerning the Atlas, if the feature is in terabytes then I would prefer it to have on cloud instead of not having it at all.  

"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill 

Posts 762
Patrick S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 3:08 PM

Wild Eagle:

Patrick, I understand your concern. You don't want to be dependable on a company or "corporation". But from my perspective, we get phones, tablets, home computers, office computers and etc... Without cloud, I can't imagine a possible way to move forward with some large data libraries. I am for physical backups, but at the same time, I want to have everything in cloud as well. I can't prefer one over the other one. Both have advantages and disadvantages 

PS: concerning the Atlas, if the feature is in terabytes then I would prefer it to have on cloud instead of not having it at all.  

No-one is saying that having data on some networked storage medium (what marketing hype calls 'the cloud') is intrinsically bad. The issue, particularly with some 'cloud' services/platforms, is who do you 'surrender' your data to, and how much control do you let them have over you. And, more importantly, what motivation is at the heart of these entities. For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices. Think about that... if things that people seem to be resigned to accepting in the digital world happened in the real (physical) world there would be a total outcry.

If Amazon, in the form of a person, broke into peoples' homes and took back physical books that people had paid for what do you think would happen? Well in some US states they'd be gunned down where they stood — and the law and public opinion would pat the home owner on the back.

As someone who is not an American citizen, given the recently exposed blatant arrogance of the US government believing it has the right to steal data of non-US citizens, do you think I should blindly trust my data to some 'cloud' coming under the ultimate jurisdiction of the US any government?

"I want to know all God's thoughts; the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

Posts 10038
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 3:23 PM

I'm just waiting for Logos to 'Facebook' the Logos.com site.  Outside of Google mail (which is hopelessly out of control), Logos is the only bad-boy I deal with (forced cloud usage).   Just this week, Accordance kindly asked which of my books I might wish to download (returning to the point of the thread).


Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 3:41 PM

Denise:

I'm just waiting for Logos to 'Facebook' the Logos.com site.  Outside of Google mail (which is hopelessly out of control), Logos is the only bad-boy I deal with (forced cloud usage).   Just this week, Accordance kindly asked which of my books I might wish to download (returning to the point of the thread).

Denise, you seem so unhappy, so negative, so anti- the direction of Logos/Faithlife, I am curious, why are you still here? Don't you think you might be more happy not immersing yourself in something that gives you such unhappiness on a daily basis? I can't imagine writing so many negative posts and feeling happy through the process - it's like you have devoted your online life to criticism and diatribe of Faithlife. Does it bring you joy? Gosh I wish you could find a way to be happy, I don't think it is here.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 3:47 PM

Patrick S.:

For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices.

Cut the ________. A single instance which Amazon admitted was a mistake, apologized for and has not repeated does not an argument make. And Logos is international so please leave out your personal view of American politics - it's irrelevant. You earn 3 fallacy hounds.

To bring the thread back to the subject of Logos software, I just had a fellow parishioner objecting that Logos didn't do more in the cloud so that he could access more of the power of the PC app on his tablet during classes. Which is to say, user opinion regarding the cloud goes both ways and both groups of users have legitimate reasons for their needs (if not always for their opinions).

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10038
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 4:06 PM

Don, you seem especially naive.  If you read my posts, I'm quite happy with my Libronix and indeed Logos. And I'm probably the poster-girl for Bob's intent of a user self-educating themselves.  My subjects bounce around and I'm a kid in a candy store.  I'd be willing to bet (real money), I read more books per-capita from Logos than most.  And unlike most, whenever I find an unusual subject that's not likely to be popular, I mention it to other self-educators.

But you're correct regarding Logos the company.  When it comes to a company that locks me in on how I roam my self-education, happy I am not.  Forced downloads right off the bat.  I've whined about that from late October 2009.  And I'll likely keep whining.

I know, I know.  It's uncomfortable for you.  It's uncomfortable for most Logosians, when Logos is not held in highest esteem.  For some reason, the company is very similar to a religion or a political party.  And the answer to questioners for both, is the suggestion you made.


Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 4:10 PM

Don Awalt:
Denise, you seem so unhappy

Denise:
 Don, you seem especially naive

Denise:
 But you're correct regarding Logos the company.  When it comes to a company that locks me in on how I roam my self-education, happy I am not.  

Wow. You make no sense. :-) Good luck to you.

Posts 2034
GaoLu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 9 2014 4:41 PM

I am approaching "older," but not afraid of NOW.  The cloud works.  There are things I like and don't like about it.  Logos will adapt as technology changes and I am glad for that.  That may mean more or less cloud.  Possibly technology will soon allow USB 4.0 thumbdrives with petabyte, exabyte, zettabyte or yottabyte (PB, EB, ZB, YB) capability.  Then we can have atlases to our heart's content on our thumb. Or maybe someday the internet will get so fast that the Logos atlases will actually work.   I can just imagine worldwide wireless internet with 10G service with 10 YB download speeds.    We will give up all freedom and privacy to get that of course, but by then our consciences will allow it and we will "understand it is for our own good."  

Wow.  I really went off didn't I!  

Summary: At my age I am not going to try to overly-preserve the past or lock in on some antique technology and hunker there till I die.  Let's lay up our treasure in Heaven, and if everything here burns...oh well.  Meanwhile, I love Logos!  

Posts 4
Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 1:47 AM

I don't know if I got an answer to my follow up question. So let me ask it another way. Has anyone reinstalled their entire Logos library onto a new computer with just the backup Logos/install directory?

If I might jump into the fray and make a comment regarding the cloud. IMO, the cloud is all about control and money. Apple didn't spend billions on a server farm because they are just so generous.

Instead of putting everything in the cloud these vendors could have build a technology based on secure connection back to your home network. But in the long run they don't have as much control over your data and ultimately your wallet.

Just think about it anyone who has administrator access to these server farms will have full access to all your data. Remember Snowden?

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 3:40 AM

Denise:

Don, you seem especially naive.  If you read my posts, I'm quite happy with my Libronix and indeed Logos. And I'm probably the poster-girl for Bob's intent of a user self-educating themselves.  My subjects bounce around and I'm a kid in a candy store.  I'd be willing to bet (real money), I read more books per-capita from Logos than most.  And unlike most, whenever I find an unusual subject that's not likely to be popular, I mention it to other self-educators.

But you're correct regarding Logos the company.  When it comes to a company that locks me in on how I roam my self-education, happy I am not.  Forced downloads right off the bat.  I've whined about that from late October 2009.  And I'll likely keep whining.

I know, I know.  It's uncomfortable for you.  It's uncomfortable for most Logosians, when Logos is not held in highest esteem.  For some reason, the company is very similar to a religion or a political party.  And the answer to questioners for both, is the suggestion you made.

With Logos is getting to be the only game in town for bible or bible library software what are we suppose to do?  Increasingly this company owns much of the market, although I don't know details, and they can pretty much do whatever they wish to customers however they wish to do it.  We can't trust the govt. but we can trust Logos to take care of us...often a cry I hear from people of a certain faith perspective.  I get the willies just loading this software onto my hard drive, cloud based or not, but what alternatives are there for this kind of software in the market that are any more solid and reliable?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 4:09 AM

Rene Atchley:
I get the willies just loading this software onto my hard drive, cloud based or not

Can you explain why?

I just don't understand this and would like to

Thanks.

Posts 4
Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 5:13 AM

Rene Atchley:

Denise:

I know, I know.  It's uncomfortable for you.  It's uncomfortable for most Logosians, when Logos is not held in highest esteem.  For some reason, the company is very similar to a religion or a political party.  And the answer to questioners for both, is the suggestion you made.

Increasingly this company owns much of the market, although I don't know details, and they can pretty much do whatever they wish to customers however they wish to do it.  We can't trust the govt. but we can trust Logos to take care of us...often a cry I hear from people of a certain faith perspective.  I get the willies just loading this software onto my hard drive, cloud based or not, but what alternatives are there for this kind of software in the market that are any more solid and reliable?

I've been using Logos for over 10yrs and love what it can do for a layperson like me who has never been to seminary. It is not a matter of alternative but what options do we have to protect our investment and what level of usage vs cost are we willing to live with. I don't knock Logos for needing to make a profit. Unfortunately we live in a world that without money the company will go bankrupt and we won't have anything. At the same time I am just not willing to pay up every couple of years for an upgrade. I appreciate what Denise have wrote. We need to know the pros and cons of these tools. I think it is a bit silly to complain that only cheerleading for Logos is allowed. I think negative opinions are just as valuable as positive one if they have merits.

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 5:16 AM

Graham Criddle:

Rene Atchley:
I get the willies just loading this software onto my hard drive, cloud based or not

Can you explain why?

I just don't understand this and would like to

Thanks.

Well it is hard to explain without harping on old themes which get tiresome.  First among these is the shift from a narrative/text based program to magic pictures that occurred with L4 (if I recall correctly) that has little value or interest for me as a consumer.  Secondly the notion that I don't own a program just a license that I rent from one moment to another that is totally controlled by a large business which limits the theological perspective that I have access to (yeah I know they have "expanded" the perspectives in the last two updates).  Thirdly loading a program that interacts and rely on some servers out there in cyberspace that are controlled by several companies that I am just suppose to trust (data out there).  And finally data exchanges between my computer and these cloud based computers that give an unknown amount of data and access to how to my hard drive data without necessarily informing me...again I should just trust them because I have their word on it (data in here).  I see no reason to trust profit driven corporations any more than the government who is there for my own good.    

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 5:42 AM

Thanks Rene

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 10 2014 1:00 PM

Rene Atchley:

First among these is the shift from a narrative/text based program to magic pictures that occurred with L4 (if I recall correctly) that has little value or interest for me as a consumer.    

Not disagreeing but there are two points that people new to the forums need to realize:

  1. I don't believe there has been a "shift from a narrative/text based program" and would use features such as the Propositional Outlines as a counter example.
  2. I believe the addition of "magic pictures" is essential to Logos' growth because the teaching techniques used today are very visual (think graphic organizers) and Logos must support the common basic studying techniques that their users learned in school. That is one reason I felt so strongly about the need to attach notes to multiple points.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13
Gregory Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 10 2014 6:48 PM

I for one agree with what Rene and Denise have said. Logos is the only application I use that by default uses the cloud. I have intentionally steered away from that with other software. For many things, I do bring some slight "inconveniences" upon myself because of this, but to me that is something I'll put up with in trade for some peace of mind concerning privacy. However, as a bi-lingual missionary, I don't see myself switching to any of the competing software any time soon. Why? I have yet to find any other BIble study software with as many resources in both english and spanish. When Accordance starts producing dictionaries, commentaries, etc. in spanish, I may give it a try.

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 10 2014 7:26 PM

Steve:
if I ever want to run Logos in a completely isolated mode (status quo), I already have everything from my current installation to reinstall Logos offline? For instance if I were to reformat my hard drive and reload Win OS, I can reload the entire Logos program from my C:\Users\Steve\AppData\Local\Logos4 directory?

If the Installer folder looks like this

then you can install Logos 6 offline as per wiki Method 1, providing you first install .NET 4.5.2, then run DXSetup.exe, LogosPrerequisites-x64.msi, go offline and then run Logos-x64.msi. The method is the same for Logos 5 (but the msi files are different and .NET 4.5 is fine).

I still have Logos 5 online with Automatically Download Updates = NO, which means it will sync normally and I can get resources updates from Logos 6 via the scan command (it won't get all the resources/updates because some are L6 only and some will no longer be compatible with L5).

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 9946
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 10 2014 8:42 PM

Patrick S.:
For example we have situations like with Amazon where a book title that people had purchased - that is, paid money for - was, unilaterally and without notice, removed from Amazon customers' private and personal devices.

I remember that incident though I wasn't directly affected by it.  I contacted Amazon at the time and found that whoever uploaded the resource to Amazon Kindle did not have the right to do so.  I understand that those affected were compensated.  I hardly think any such thing is likely to occur with Logos.

george
gfsomsel

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