To those unhappy with Logos communication during outage

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This post has 81 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 24 2014 11:51 PM

MJ. Smith:
If you don't want a response don't post it. Entitlement Is not a word used frequently in my social circles.

Never said I did't want a response, it's just not your place to tell me how I feel...I know how I feel...

Also I found This...

What is 1TB (Terabyte) in English?

Good question – to put it simply, its 1000 GB (Gigabytes), or 1 Million MB (Megabytes) or to get really deep its 1000 Million KB (Kilobytes).

So how much can I store on a 1TB Drive?

Well, this is this fun bit, the answer is A LOT!

A 1TB drive can hold (actual capacity varies by content): -

  • 17,000 hours of music.
    • To put that in perspective that’s 708 days of non-stop listening to music, without sleeping – that’s just under 2 YEARS!
  • 320,000 high resolution digital photos
    • The average family takes 700 photos when they go on holiday. A 1TB drive will allow you to store 457 holidays worth of photos.
  • 1000 hours of digital video
    • Equivalent to 41 days of watching your home video footage - without sleeping.
  • 250 DVD films (2 hours in length)
    • The average person in the UK watches 2 DVDs per week. That’s 125 weeks worth of DVD watching – or over 2 years worth of a collection.

 so if atlas is 15TB that would be 4,800,000 high res photos I don't think atlas is near that big. I'm not drinking that cool aidRoll Eyes

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 24 2014 11:58 PM

MJ. Smith:
That is why you can run the application in offline mode only checking onto the internet every few months to update software and add resources, if desired.

There has been 6 software updates in less than the first month of release if I wait several months that would be about 18 updates not including all of the book fixes LOL...Big Smile 

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 24 2014 11:59 PM

Bryan Strickland:

 so if atlas is 15TB that would be 4,800,000 high res photos I don't think atlas is near that big. I'm not drinking that cool aidRoll Eyes

Frankly, I have my doubts as well that the bitmaps are that huge, but it could be possibly be the result of some storage or markup scheme, so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt. I don't think anyone at Logos would outright lie about technical details.

Bryan, expressing your frustrations is a very normal thing. But given that Logos has promised to look at improving in these areas, maybe we should hold it in and wait for what's promised. Now, if there are new bugs or annoyances, or old bugs that still haven't gone away, or new suggestions, you could start a new thread. That way, it gets more attention from the Logos staffers.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 12:07 AM

AgreedSmile

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 124
GeoPappas | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 3:16 AM

Lee:
All the Atlas map images take up more than 15 TB, IIRC.

15 TB!  Are you a Logos employee (I can't tell anymore since the system crash because the icons that identify employees are gone)?  Where did you get this figure from?  This figure sounds WAY off-base.

I have worked in the computer profession for about three decades at a very high level.  I have also been involved professionally with digital imaging for over a decade.  There is no way that the Atlas should take up even 1 TB.  Even 50 GB would be a lot.  From what I have seen, the Atlas images look like illustrations (as opposed to photos).  An illustration should take up a very, very small amount of space (since it is very highly compressible).

For example, I downloaded another Bible mapping application called Bible Mapper 3.0 a few months ago.  The entire application (including all of the maps) takes up about 278 MB.  That is about a 1/4 GB (or .000278 TB) for the entire application!

Here is a sample map of Israel from the software.  It has a file size of about 600 KB:

I have read that L6 will have about 250 maps in total when complete (see here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93394/648779.aspx#648779 and here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93217/649207.aspx#649207).  Most of the maps should be able to share data.  For example, all of the maps for the life of Jesus should take place in Israel.  So all of those maps should be able to use the same data.  But even if each of the maps had completely different data, at 600 KB each, that would be a total of 150 MB.  That isn't even close to 1 GB.

If the L6 maps are taking up terabytes (TB), then someone has done something very wrong from a technical standpoint (IMO).

Posts 21638
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 3:28 AM

GeoPappas:
15 TB!  Are you a Logos employee (I can't tell anymore since the system crash because the icons that identify employees are gone)?  Where did you get this figure from?  This figure sounds WAY off-base.

Lee isn't a Logos employee

GeoPappas:
If the L6 maps are taking up terabytes (TB), then someone has done something very wrong from a technical standpoint (IMO).

I don't know the exact number but https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93638/650292.aspx#650292 provides some context

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 4:46 AM

Graham Criddle:
I don't know the exact number but https://community.logos.com/forums/p/93638/650292.aspx#650292 provides some context

Sean Boisen:

Dan Francis:

Well I am amazed that Logos atlas is over a terabyte. 

-Dan

That's one of the characteristics of zoomable maps: every time you zoom in one more level, you're swapping one tile for 4 more detailed tiles. On a map with 5 zoom levels, that means each tile needs 1024 more tiles to replace it at the highest zoom level, and a story map might have 9, 16 or more tiles at the initial level. That doesn't mean you actually download a terabyte of data: each time you zoom in, you're narrowing the focus of the map, and you only download the tiles you need for display. But if you were to download the entire map in its full extent with all the tiles (e.g. for offline use), that requires gigabytes or more of data per map.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

Posts 6
Bill Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 5:59 AM

Obviously you do not have a disastor recovery plan in place. A quick non technical official response would have suffice. Secondly having visited Bellingham and seeing you awesome buildings it showes me its all a ruse. To have a weak engine (data center and its servers) under the hood of a Porsche does not do the customer any good. This is the biggest head scratcher is why you did not spend the money on server infrastructure like you do on you image. 

1. Get a sound disaster  recovery plan in place. You do not have one! If you had one you would have had a liaison to inform us.   2. Put you data centers geographically apart with redundant realtime backup. 3 . Do not put your servers in a data centers with low security (some will say we have great security  but do not)  4. Do not try and coverup your mistakes. Human answers within at lest one hour of an outage will do. Be honest and to the point.  And and finely you may be back up but how secure are you currently from cyber sttacks. Do not cheat corners to just get up and going.  Welcome me to the new age. If you want to play in the cloud it's time to look at your self and start with honesty and integrighty. Not continued loaded lawer responses and excuses. Bill  Cyber Security Officer at a major Saas. 
Posts 9945
George Somsel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 6:25 AM

mike:

I cant imagine for those SDA pastor who had to use their Logos ipad or proclaim to preach today. Mustve been their worst Sunday ever. 

I would have been super pissed if had to preach today and my notes was gone. Standing up there on pulpit like a dummy.

logos is playing dangerously 

SUNDAY ??  You did say SDA.

george
gfsomsel

יְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן

Posts 2465
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 6:35 AM

GeoPappas:

Lee:
All the Atlas map images take up more than 15 TB, IIRC.

15 TB!  Are you a Logos employee (I can't tell anymore since the system crash because the icons that identify employees are gone)?  Where did you get this figure from?  This figure sounds WAY off-base.

If the L6 maps are taking up terabytes (TB), then someone has done something very wrong from a technical standpoint (IMO).

There's no way that anyone who reads all my posts in this thread will think I'm a Logos employee. Smile

I can't find the exact post now, but this figure is just an estimate (since most of the maps haven't been produced at this moment). The actual figure will still be in the order of terabytes. My guess is that the same map base is being made 250 times over, with different markings, or something like that. Overlapping tiles at various zoom levels, elevation data and other markup can also be contributing factors. 

As I already said, I am pretty sure that this size can be drastically reduced.

Posts 2993
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 6:58 AM

Lee:

GeoPappas:

Lee:
All the Atlas map images take up more than 15 TB, IIRC.

15 TB!  Are you a Logos employee (I can't tell anymore since the system crash because the icons that identify employees are gone)?  Where did you get this figure from?  This figure sounds WAY off-base.

If the L6 maps are taking up terabytes (TB), then someone has done something very wrong from a technical standpoint (IMO).

There's no way that anyone who reads all my posts in this thread will think I'm a Logos employee. Smile

I can't find the exact post now, but this figure is just an estimate (since most of the maps haven't been produced at this moment). The actual figure will still be in the order of terabytes. My guess is that the same map base is being made 250 times over, with different markings, or something like that. Overlapping tiles at various zoom levels, elevation data and other markup can also be contributing factors. 

As I already said, I am pretty sure that this size can be drastically reduced.

Faithlife employees have definitely said it is terabytes worth of info.  I don't know the exact number though.

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Posts 18634
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:34 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Lee:

GeoPappas:

Lee:
All the Atlas map images take up more than 15 TB, IIRC.

15 TB!  Are you a Logos employee (I can't tell anymore since the system crash because the icons that identify employees are gone)?  Where did you get this figure from?  This figure sounds WAY off-base.

If the L6 maps are taking up terabytes (TB), then someone has done something very wrong from a technical standpoint (IMO).

There's no way that anyone who reads all my posts in this thread will think I'm a Logos employee. Smile

I can't find the exact post now, but this figure is just an estimate (since most of the maps haven't been produced at this moment). The actual figure will still be in the order of terabytes. My guess is that the same map base is being made 250 times over, with different markings, or something like that. Overlapping tiles at various zoom levels, elevation data and other markup can also be contributing factors. 

As I already said, I am pretty sure that this size can be drastically reduced.

Faithlife employees have definitely said it is terabytes worth of info.  I don't know the exact number though.

Faithlife's Director of IT, Jim Straatman, said it was ~190TB of data: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/96616.aspx 

Posts 21638
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:37 AM

Rosie Perera:
Faithlife's Director of IT, Jim Straatman, said it was ~190TB of data: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/96616.aspx 

Rosie - that was for a number of systems and not specific to the Atlas maps

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:52 AM

Bryan Strickland:
so if atlas is 15TB that would be 4,800,000 high res photos I don't think atlas is near that big. I'm not drinking that cool aidRoll Eyes

We don't actually know the full size the Atlas will be yet; I believe we're just making estimates.

We are delivering the Atlas maps using a tiling system that allows us to support up to 16 zoom levels. To think about this, imagine a map of Israel that fills your screen. Now imagine zooming in so that everything is twice as large. The theoretical map is now four times as large (twice as wide, twice as tall) as your screen. You can imagine a large sheet of paper, four times the area of your screen, sliding around behind your screen, which acts like a window onto the larger map, as you pan around the map. 

Now, zoom in again. The size of the map increases by 4 again, to 16 times the size of your screen in pixels. Now zoom in again. etc.

Just play with Israel on Google maps It took me four zooms to get from seeing all of Israel on my laptop screen to being able to have the Sea of Galilee fill the screen nicely. It was six zooms to get to where I would want to be to follow action around the north shore.

The way the tiling system works, we generate all the pixels (as smaller than screen sized tiles) for every zoom level. So while the area around major cities or story locations are most likely to get zoomed in, we have also generated all the zoomed-in titles for the Mediterranean Sea along the coast, etc. 

Yes, many of these tiles are near identical (but generally not exactly, since we have topographic info) -- and many are identical across the 250 maps -- but the algorithms for identifying and optimizing for these situations aren't developed yet. And, since each map focuses on different cities, labels, etc., and since there's simply so much data, it's not yet worth the trouble. (If optimization cut storage in half -- to 8 terabytes -- it's still too much to download, so we might as well use the much cheaper to implement 'store every tile' system and use all 15 terabytes. It's only worth really pushing the optimization if it could conceivably be squeezed to a size that would be sensible to download.)

Moreover, we're already generating each of these 250 maps in two different mapping styles, and plan to offer even more. (We don't generate all 16 zoom levels for each map -- it doesn't make sense for some -- and we change the extents to reflect the story boundaries, which avoids generating too much pointless ocean. We use a single background map to fill in the outer areas across all maps. This a kind of 'shared tile' optimization, but easier than trying to do it on specific tiles within the complicated rendering tree.)

This is a quick simplification, but hopefully it helps explain what's going on. 

Delivering a static rendering of each of the 250 full maps at one or two zoom levels is probably something we can download to your machine, and once we've got the first round of maps done we'll revisit optimizing downloads for just this scenario.

Posts 9967
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 9:55 AM

I didn't write this.  But defending Logos (possibly), they have a odd habit of planning ahead.  I know, I know.  My guess is they're planning for more than just 'maps' (which as noted above, are not that large ... I have detailed geology maps with multiple layers that tax the iPad software but not the memory.  Maps that do more than traditional maps would be very interesting (and a big sales attractant).

Ooops.  Followed Bob yet again.  Maybe they're not planning ahead that much.


Posts 2056
Forum MVP
Randy W. Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 10:05 AM

I think what many of us are wondering is why not have one background topo image for the entire regiion (and possibly a couple alternates, flat, outlined, etc) and overlay different vector layers over it for the differing locations, routes, etc on each of the various maps.

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 10:16 AM

I'm like this. I'm a very impatient person Smile

Posts 1881
Donnie Hale | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 11:28 AM

Rosie Perera:
Faithlife's Director of IT, Jim Straatman, said it was ~190TB of data

I saw that, one of the first Faithlife responses to the situation. Later, another Faithlife person said it was only web server storage that was impacted, not "databases" (in quote b/c of the various database / storage solutions in question).

That raised my platform architect antenna - why would a web server (or even a large farm of web servers) need 190TB of data? I know I don't have all the details - just based on those two separately-provided data points.

Donnie

Posts 957
Yasmin Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 12:07 PM

Graham Criddle:

Rosie Perera:
Faithlife's Director of IT, Jim Straatman, said it was ~190TB of data: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/96616.aspx 

Rosie - that was for a number of systems and not specific to the Atlas maps

Ah, a clarifying comment! I was beginning to get very confused.

Posts 26028
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 25 2014 12:27 PM

Bill Smith:

Obviously you do not have a disastor recovery plan in place. A quick non technical official response would have suffice. 

It's very nice to hear from somewhat who knows what recovery expectations should be. Thanks.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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